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Brett H

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« Reply #100 on: 30/08/2017, 09:29 PM »
The newer versions of the K10 do look great that's for sure.  I reckon IG you might just need a bigger espresso machine to restore the balance :D
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Simon

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« Reply #101 on: 31/08/2017, 12:05 AM »
(I secretly love dosers too... Something about the tactile experience of thwacking the lever! Miss doing that more frequently with the ol Rocky which I still have hehe)
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« Reply #102 on: 31/08/2017, 01:17 PM »
(I secretly love dosers too... Something about the tactile experience of thwacking the lever! Miss doing that more frequently with the ol Rocky which I still have hehe)

Hi Simon:

The great thing about dosers is Mazzer and other companies make their profit from the Doserless models. I have seen a brand new Mazzer Robur on ebay for $1500...Doser model.

It is a well kept secret maybe but I get it, if you are truly meticulous and want to clean every last bit of coffee out of the grinder hopper for each shot, then  a doserless model is less work.

InspectorGadget

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« Reply #103 on: 01/09/2017, 10:56 AM »
One of the things that intrigues me with this Robur is just how clean and fluffy the grind is. I wonder if flat burrs apply more pressure and crush the bean thereby releasing more oils making the grind more sticky.

It is just a feature of the grind that kind of has me gobsmacked. It is just very different.

It could be all in the mind of course...

Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #104 on: 01/09/2017, 11:54 AM »
I prefer for practical reasons the doser grinders  :thumb:

Have also owned the biggest flat burr grinder - A Mazzer Major doser ( also a great grinder )

In my opinion - flat burr grinders and small clinicals produce a livelier flavour profile and the large conical  brings out the caramel / chocolate to the fore without sacrificing other flavours that want to poke through the flavour barrier

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

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askthe coffeeguy

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« Reply #105 on: 01/09/2017, 12:24 PM »
have to say Im leaning towards flat burr for more rounded particles and more rounded flavour

P
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InspectorGadget

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« Reply #106 on: 01/09/2017, 02:16 PM »
have to say Im leaning towards flat burr for more rounded particles and more rounded flavour

P

I am sure each burr set will give a different particle size distribution and therefore different rates of extraction and uniformity thereof and may affect flavour and this will hold for flat or conicals.

I will do some comparisons with my M4D once I get used to this Mazzer Robur.

I do waste a bit more with this than the M4D but not that much.

I was curious about the grind. I just ran some coffee through the M4D and compared it with the grind from the Robur. The Robur on the same coffee is definitely less sticky is how I would describe it and less likely to clump when pinching it or compressing it. It seems to me there is a slight difference in the nature of the ground particles, some of it could just be the size distribution which for the Robur may contain more coarse particles even though it pours the same.

I haven't done any flavour tests yet. I might do that on the weekend.

InspectorGadget

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« Reply #107 on: 02/09/2017, 01:43 PM »
I was reading a very interesting MUST READ thread about this new Niche grinder on a CS thread. I read a 17 page review on it.

In a nutshell, Kony burrs inside a tiny machine but with 450W motor and running at 330 RPM. Yes, it could be a game changer.

I think conical burrs are the way to go.

My observation in my new Robur is the grind is like fresh fallen snow, you know when it falls well below zero and it is like a fine powder with no tendency to conglomerate, no stickiness.

I think with flat burrs the force of the collisions due to the centrifugal forces release oils and cause conglomeration and stickiness which leads to clumping. I Know static and other factors can do this too but I am more convinced that slow moving conical burrs are best or alternatively very large 80mm flat burrs.

Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #108 on: 02/09/2017, 02:11 PM »
Here is a photo of the BNZ MD74
Sandwiched between the incoming machine - The Bezzera Strega and the outgoing machine A BZ40

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

InspectorGadget

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« Reply #109 on: 02/09/2017, 06:51 PM »
Here is a photo of the BNZ MD74
Sandwiched between the incoming machine - The Bezzera Strega and the outgoing machine A BZ40

KK

The Bank of NZ grinder is definitely more compact than the Robur.

Your Bezzera BZ40-P is the volumetric doser version, mine was completely manual. I got $600 or $700 for it I think about a year ago but it was over 20 years old. It was time to say goodbye.

Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #110 on: 02/09/2017, 07:52 PM »
If my opinion matters - I feel that the BNZ MD74 is equal to to the Robur
And
Because you are in Perth I though to find an old photo so you can compare the size for comparison

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

InspectorGadget

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« Reply #111 on: 02/09/2017, 08:06 PM »
If my opinion matters - I feel that the BNZ MD74 is equal to to the Robur
And
Because you are in Perth I though to find an old photo so you can compare the size for comparison

KK

Price comes into  it too. I paid $650 for the Mazzer Robur and aside from a few portafilter dings it all works really well and new burrs were put in this year too.

If money were no object I'd get a Ceado E92 but $4500 is just a touch expensive.

I think I'd be happy with any of these big grinders really  except for the size. The Macap M7D is probably the best looking.


Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #112 on: 02/09/2017, 09:00 PM »
Used BNZ's are about the same value as used Robur's
You just need to search

However I totally understand that you may be after a more sleek shape 

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

InspectorGadget

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« Reply #113 on: 03/09/2017, 12:08 PM »
I think the burr set in a grinder is probably more important than the grinder itself.

The popular conical grinders have burr sets available for them by third parties. My one in fact has a third party burr set fitted and I'm very happy with the performance.

Companies such as Gorilla make expensive but specialised burr sets for grinders, not just conical ones, that have greatly increased hardness, reduced friction and change the particle size distribution of the grinder.

It seems to me if I were an engineer I'd be tempted to go into business doing this as the particle size distribution will suit some beans and roasts more than others raising the prospect that you could change burrs to suit the type of beans you are using. Obviously not something you want to do every day but it would probably be easy enough to swap them out. It only takes 30 minutes to do that.

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« Reply #114 on: 03/09/2017, 05:58 PM »
First of all forgive me for rabbiting on a bit about the Robur.

It is a tester for me. I love this machine. It is easy to live with and is easy to use.

I am not so meticulous as some here are though. I don't clean out the chute with a brush each time and if there are beans left in the hopper overnight they can stay there. I try to grind just enough for each time but if there is some left over during the day for the next shot I don't worry too much.

I did do some testing against the Macap M4D. I honestly couldn't tell any difference. I'm sure with some roasts and a better set of taste buts and even more testing that there may be a difference but it definitely isn't huge with my roast which is a medium to dark roast of Ethiopian. It may be with a different roast the results would be different but really I just wanted to find out whether the differences are obvious and big and I don't think they are.

The grind quality though is outstanding as far as lightness and zero clumping. The Macap M4D does clump a bit, not a lot but it is there but in the cup it doesn't make any noticeable difference.

I used My Wega Mini Nova Classic with the standard portafilter for testing.

The Robur will be up for sale if anyone here in Perth is interested. I like it a lot but it is time to go back to the Macap and maybe try another grinder sometime like a Mazzer Major, just to see if I am missing out on anything. If I can get one cheap that is!

I have talked to other people on grinders and WOW, the technical discussions on grind size and distribution even down to how you get football shaped particles and lots of fines with conicals...

I think the proof is in the cup and if you can tell the difference then that is a positive result, if you can't then it is down to if you like having that particular grinder on your bench. I do but my wife doesn't and I can see her point. The Macap M4D in chrome also fits in with the Mini Nova nicely.

Nevertheless when this is sold I will miss seeing it go and it has given me respect for large conincal grinders as home machines.

Simon

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« Reply #115 on: 03/09/2017, 08:46 PM »
First of all forgive me for rabbiting on a bit about the Robur.

It is a tester for me. I love this machine. It is easy to live with and is easy to use.

I am not so meticulous as some here are though. I don't clean out the chute with a brush each time and if there are beans left in the hopper overnight they can stay there. I try to grind just enough for each time but if there is some left over during the day for the next shot I don't worry too much.

I did do some testing against the Macap M4D. I honestly couldn't tell any difference. I'm sure with some roasts and a better set of taste buts and even more testing that there may be a difference but it definitely isn't huge with my roast which is a medium to dark roast of Ethiopian. It may be with a different roast the results would be different but really I just wanted to find out whether the differences are obvious and big and I don't think they are.

The grind quality though is outstanding as far as lightness and zero clumping. The Macap M4D does clump a bit, not a lot but it is there but in the cup it doesn't make any noticeable difference.

I used My Wega Mini Nova Classic with the standard portafilter for testing.

The Robur will be up for sale if anyone here in Perth is interested. I like it a lot but it is time to go back to the Macap and maybe try another grinder sometime like a Mazzer Major, just to see if I am missing out on anything. If I can get one cheap that is!

I have talked to other people on grinders and WOW, the technical discussions on grind size and distribution even down to how you get football shaped particles and lots of fines with conicals...

I think the proof is in the cup and if you can tell the difference then that is a positive result, if you can't then it is down to if you like having that particular grinder on your bench. I do but my wife doesn't and I can see her point. The Macap M4D in chrome also fits in with the Mini Nova nicely.

Nevertheless when this is sold I will miss seeing it go and it has given me respect for large conincal grinders as home machines.
Ah nah I'm loving hearing about it! The Robur is something I don't think I would get, but it's educational hearing about it and its performance.

(And that's awesome to hear you're not as meticulous... I honestly wish I wasn't so meticulous!! I tend to try and make sure there are no extra grounds or beans fragment leftover, far too paranoid about it affecting my shots... but I'm AIMING to not be so fastidious!)
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InspectorGadget

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« Reply #116 on: 04/09/2017, 08:38 PM »
I might just go ape-shit on this machine and get some Gorilla conical burrs for it.

Any thoughts?

They're supposed to be the Bongo's bananas with a brinell hardness many times the standard burrs and a low friction coating.


Brett H

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« Reply #117 on: 07/09/2017, 04:25 PM »
Sounds perfect for a really busy cafe.  For home, I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference.  Perhaps do it when you're up for new burrs and splurge now on awesome browns :D
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« Reply #118 on: 07/09/2017, 07:27 PM »
Hi Brett:

I'm not made of money but sometimes things like Gorilla burrs can be resold on especially when used at home, 'one little old lady owner' and so on. They are nearly $500 though and I'm sure you are right but it does fascinate me that they continue to tune the size distribution of the burrs and this is where flavour differences can arise.

I remain interested in someone with more money than me and plenty of time on their hands to test these in a Robur

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« Reply #119 on: 07/09/2017, 09:56 PM »
Thing is, and devils advocate.... the tangibility of the 'difference' is purely down to your assessment so perhaps you'd better do it! Now, you know as well as I the psychology of a significant outlay behoves the investor to wax-lyrical about the product on forums like this. The kicker being of course that the waxer is less likely to bemoan a product such as this for fear of looking silly and/or not being able to offload the damn thing to like-minded individuals ;)

Just do it  >:D
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« Reply #120 on: 07/09/2017, 11:26 PM »
Thing is, and devils advocate.... the tangibility of the 'difference' is purely down to your assessment so perhaps you'd better do it! Now, you know as well as I the psychology of a significant outlay behoves the investor to wax-lyrical about the product on forums like this. The kicker being of course that the waxer is less likely to bemoan a product such as this for fear of looking silly and/or not being able to offload the damn thing to like-minded individuals ;)

Just do it  >:D

Ha Brett:

You are right so I guess I might just start my glowing report on the Gorilla burrs now, don't bother actually bother buying and testing them.

It will contain references to the lack of fines and bitterness and flavour notes so high that they could only otherwise achieved with a rubber band around the 'nads' and so on. Grounds so fluffy that fine snow in siberia doesn't compete and flavours that I didn't know existed in coffee are now blowing my mind. Chocolate notes so pronounced that I may as well be immersed in a vat of the finest swiss chocolate. Floral notes so pronounced it is like being in the middle of the botanic gardens on a fine Spring day and so on. Flavour notes so bright that I need sunglasses when I have an espresso. The burrs a deep black the low friction coefficient so low I need a stethoscope to detect the sounds of the beans being ground.

My laser particle analyser (I have a spare one in the shed) will show a such an amazing particle size distribution that in fact is just a simple vertical line.

Grant


Simon

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« Reply #121 on: 08/09/2017, 11:42 AM »
Ha Brett:

You are right so I guess I might just start my glowing report on the Gorilla burrs now, don't bother actually bother buying and testing them.

It will contain references to the lack of fines and bitterness and flavour notes so high that they could only otherwise achieved with a rubber band around the 'nads' and so on. Grounds so fluffy that fine snow in siberia doesn't compete and flavours that I didn't know existed in coffee are now blowing my mind. Chocolate notes so pronounced that I may as well be immersed in a vat of the finest swiss chocolate. Floral notes so pronounced it is like being in the middle of the botanic gardens on a fine Spring day and so on. Flavour notes so bright that I need sunglasses when I have an espresso. The burrs a deep black the low friction coefficient so low I need a stethoscope to detect the sounds of the beans being ground.

My laser particle analyser (I have a spare one in the shed) will show a such an amazing particle size distribution that in fact is just a simple vertical line.

Grant
HAHAHA another glowing ripper of a post XD
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Brett H

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« Reply #122 on: 08/09/2017, 09:39 PM »
Bwahahahaha  :rofl:
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InspectorGadget

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« Reply #123 on: 09/09/2017, 11:57 AM »
I'm glad you guys enjoyed my pre-burr review on the Gorilla Gear burrs...

The correct and appropriate use of language is important even when used inappropriately..in Blazing Saddles the Movie Hedley Lemarr the assistant to the Governor said to Sheriff Taggart after a spectacularly florid and OTT speech, 'why Mr Lemarr you use your tongue prettier than a $20 whore'. Impressive stuff, modern poetry...suck on that Shakespeare is all I can say. I'm showing my age too.

Mazzer Robur burrs have a reputation for taking 20kg and then some of beans to be bed in. It turns out that this was caused by Mazzer producing poorly machined burrs, one engineer in the CoffeeSnobs group took photos of the rough edges and poor finish obvious to even the naked eye. The cause was thought to be equipment that did the cutting being blunt. Evidently Mazzer fixed this....evidently.

The corollary of this is that Mazzer burrs are often not the first choice for burrs in the Robur. My Robur has aftermarket burrs fitted by Espresso Works here in Perth and it was for a first line cafe use as their main machine so obviously they did it for reasons other than cost as the difference in cost is not that much, less than $100 maybe even less than $50.

I want to replace the burrs just in case even though by my calculations at 20kg per week since January the burrs should still be in good shape and the machine has been not used since July when they started using their Mazzer Kold.

There are also burrs called Food Friendly Burrs supposed to last 70% longer.

Thoughts?

LeroyC

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« Reply #124 on: 09/09/2017, 12:09 PM »
I think the grass is always greener on the other side. ;-P
I love coffee. It's as simple as that.

BeanRoasters

 

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