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Simon

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Quamar Q50P/doserless habits!
« on: 28/07/2017, 07:38 PM »
Hey guys, I scored a Quamar Q50P recently and was just wanting to ask owners a few questions about good practices to adopt (and even owners of similar doserless grinders like Macap m2m, Baratza Sette, and others in this class/price-range).

1) Do you guys fill the hopper with beans and dose by weight (then put beans away into one-way valve bag when done) or does anyone get good results with single dosing? Just not sure if better to have the weight of beans pressing down and whether single dosing leads to inconsistent grinds?

2) Purging: how long do you guys purge to get back to getting a fresh dose? Or does anyone vacuum out the grinder in between doses (if that's even possible, I haven't received the grinder yet, but am used to vacuuming out my Rocky Doser Grinder chute and then chucking in 10 beans to purge through)

3) Distribution with a doserless: how have others gotten the best results? Letting the whole dose drop straight into the centre, collapse and tamp; dose half, collapse then finish dose; move portafilter around while dosing?

Am not used to a doserless so just wondering how to approach this exciting new venture

Thanks heaps for any input big or small!

Simon

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« Reply #1 on: 28/07/2017, 08:01 PM »
Hi Simon.

I use a Quamar Q50P every day.

1. I dose by weight. See a video of my technique on my K Bean Training page.

2. I never purge. Don't feel it makes a huge difference.

3. Again, watch my vid.

Cheers mate :)

Paul


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Simon

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« Reply #2 on: 28/07/2017, 08:37 PM »
Ah yeah forgot about that vid, will have a look, cheers! Honestly I'm looking to simplify as much as possible whilst knowing that I'm doing all I can to get the best results. Soooo much fiddling around with my old grinder, and so many different things I tried to change to get a decent shot.

Cheers bud :)

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Simon

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« Reply #3 on: 28/07/2017, 08:55 PM »
Just watched the vid, yeah I really really like your super simple and easy to understand approach. I was at the point with my old grinder where this was my routine:

-Purge 10 beans
-Put in beans (plus a bit extra for any grind retention)
-Remove basket, and dose evenly into removed basket while rotating
-Stop grinding halfway, collapse and light tamp (just tamper weight)
-Dose rest
-Stockfleth
-Collapse once
-Place basket into portafilter
-NO nutation, straight tamp (used to nutate but this seemed to work fine)


Took about 6-10minutes to get an espresso, but then it may have been other factors (burrs needed replacing maybe... roasts weren't as even...), but looking to simplify. I'll still experiment (I quite enjoy Stockflething ), and I may still purge a little, but your pour looked great in the vid.

Looking forward to the fun!

Keep em coming guys if any more input!

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« Reply #4 on: 28/07/2017, 10:41 PM »
I have been there Simon. Years of playing with different techniques and back to back testing, etc, etc.
In the end I simplified things and my espresso is a good as it ever has been. Not perfect, but always good.
KISS Simon (Keep It So Simple)
Cheers
Paul


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Simon

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« Reply #5 on: 28/07/2017, 11:05 PM »
Too true! 
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« Reply #6 on: 29/07/2017, 12:01 PM »
Great thread and good advice.  I was so very ready to go the whole hog and grab a... forgot... belt drive, conical burr opens grind chamber... forget.  Seriously expensive, import only and trashed on forums by the select few owners.  A K10, a paint brush and I'm happy.... for now...... KISS
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Simon

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« Reply #7 on: 01/08/2017, 02:59 PM »
Just an update for anyone listening, got my Quamar Q50P today! Ah it's an awesome little grinder... am still figuring out the ins and outs, but going great.

Was a little confused about the amount of steps between the number adjustments, (sometimes it's 4 clicks between numbers, sometimes it's 5... has anyone else found that or are my basic counting skills dodgy haha..).

Gave it a good clean and filled the hopper. Started on setting number 4 as I had absolutely no idea where to start. I found it didn't dose directly into the centre of the basket so i had to angle it a bit. Here are the shots so far:

1) in: 22g at grind setting 4, yield: 52g in 13s (;D)

2) 22g gr2 y44.3g 20s (this one squirted me DIRECTLY into my right eye haha..)

3) 22g gr1 y8.6g 70s (purged 2 seconds instead of 1 second, which may account for the dramatic change... far too fine obviously haha, had boulders of clumps!)

4) 23g gr2 y40g 28s
This one was finally semi-decent! Was pulling all the shots with a naked portafilter, and even though the numbers look ok for this last one, had a big dead spot in centre of the pour for most of it.

So I'm gonna have to work on distribution. I'm assuming the dead spot meant that it was far too 'dense' in the centre of the puck, so I may dose portafilter 1/2 to 3/4 full, horizontal taps to distribute the grounds around and vertical collapse, then fill the rest.

Whoa... far out am wiiiiired at the moment haha... I didn't drink all the shots but drank half the volume in the first few and all of the last ones.... bit buzzed atm!

Will keep updates going just for fun, please feel free to comment/offer guidance. Am not used to dosing with a doserless, so hints are appreciated! Thanks guys :D
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« Reply #8 on: 01/08/2017, 05:58 PM »
Hi Simon,
I find myself working within a range of 2-3 clicks from day to day with the same blend.


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Simon

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« Reply #9 on: 01/08/2017, 06:18 PM »
Hey Paul, ah okay, I guess I'm more thinking in terms of remembering grind setting for particular beans. I usually have at least two different sorts of beans on the go at a time, and am going to alternate daily now (rather than with every shot like I used to XD). So just figuring out the amount of clicks between numbers, seems to change from 4 to 5 every couple of numbers or so (so that I can record grind level 1.4, 2.2 etc).
The shots didn't come out great tastewise... so much experimenting to do. Have ordered 1kg of the roasted Harrar, to take the variable of my roast out of it, so gonna really work on distribution/technique. The grinder (even though secondhand) might just need a bit of time getting used to grinding again :)
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« Reply #10 on: 01/08/2017, 10:57 PM »
...I guess I'm more thinking in terms of remembering grind setting for particular beans.
Hi Simon,
I know what you're getting at but every time you change beans you need to dial in your grinder again.
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Simon

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« Reply #11 on: 01/08/2017, 11:08 PM »
Ah ok right, but surely in recording the setting a certain bean was on (with a set dose) and using that setting again later it should be a repeatable result  (obviously with age etc the grind setting will need to change, but I'm talking not that long until the bean is used again), but hmmm I may have to ponder that... And yeah with a bean change there are old stray grinds from the other bean, but I make sure to fully clean/sweep/vacuum it all out, and purge with the new bean when I use it. Unless it's sort of too drastic a change to constantly swap beans from day to day.... that's got me thinking of maybe sticking with only the one bean batch for a couple of weeks instead of alternating now...

I shall experiment anyways haha thanks for that!
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Simon

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« Reply #12 on: 02/08/2017, 02:47 PM »
Ok another update, tried some other beans today, pulled 6 shots, here's how they went: (the way I record results is e.g. 23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s means: I dosed 23 grams coffee, on grind setting 1.5 on the quamar, yielded 33.3g espresso in 30 seconds)

SHOT 1
#Distribution technique: dose 3/4 full, collapse, dose rest, collapse, tamp.

-23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s (dead spot in centre most of the time, but decent pour otherwise... tasted nice. Will change distribution due to dead spot)

SHOT 2
#Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, vertical collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, tamp.
Ground one notch coarser:

-23g gr2.1 y51g 25s (pour was a bit more central, but strange pour.. aLOT faster... a little sour, okayish flavour..)

SHOT 3
#try same again to eliminate chance of this being due to old grinds (I always purge a few grams anyway)

-23g gr2.1 y54.6g 23s (roughly same as last shot.. bit flat in flavour.. piccolo was really nice..)

SHOT 4
#sweep chute when changing grind... back to original grind (one notch finer) to see what happens...

*-23g gr1.5 y50g 30s (bit of a dead spot in centre of the pour.. okayish still.. nice flavours. Pretty big variation volume-wise between this and last shot...)

SHOT 5
#strange that shot 1 and shot 4 had these VERY different results... maybe the first shot was always going to be dodgy as it needed to get used to it... grind one notch finer

#Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, horizontal taps to level out, collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, collapse, tamp.

-23g gr1.4 y27g 34s (interesting... maybe because the grounds were more uniform and level in the basket because of the distribution technique that's why it slowed right down... OR the steps are just too large on the grinder???)

SHOT 6
#grind one notch coarser

-23g gr1.5 y41g 30s (dead spot at right hand side.. I dosed a bit too much so maybe I slightly compressed that side a little bit when swiping off?? It looked more flattened so to speak...


So..... haha.... at this point I was a bit frustrated... I don't know what's going on... a few theories:

1) The first shot may always be a bit dodgy perhaps, need to purge more before the very first shot maybe?

2) Just need to work on distribution and a level even density of coffee within the basket.

3) The steps on the Quamar are too large.


The coffee I was using for my other post was Campos Superior Blend, and today's was a Columbian bean from Campos, freshly roasted as well on the 25th July (so 8 days postroast) so I wouldn't think it's the coffee that's the issue...

Any help in figuring all this out would be super duper appreciated.... soooo puzzled and scratching the noggin at the moment!

Thanks so much for any assistance at all guys
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« Reply #13 on: 03/08/2017, 05:02 PM »
Keep practicing Simon.
Step size isn't a problem at all so you can definitely rule that one out.
Just keep practicing. It's takes time ;)


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Simon

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« Reply #14 on: 03/08/2017, 05:26 PM »
Keep practicing Simon.
Step size isn't a problem at all so you can definitely rule that one out.
Just keep practicing. It's takes time ;)


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Thanks so much Paul appreciate that, and that's good to know.

I posted this on the other forum and definitely am changing too many variables at once, and not sticking with the one grind setting long enough. Just built up and I got super frustrated, but I know that I'll just have to take my time with it and get some consistency BEFORE changing any variables (grind setting, distribution method etc). And only then make very slight adjustments to know how this grinder works best.

Using one grinder for 7 years or so of course there'll be a learning curve with the new one!

Thanks :)
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« Reply #15 on: 03/08/2017, 07:56 PM »
We're all always learning Simon. That's what makes coffee a hobby and not just a drink I reckon :)


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« Reply #16 on: 03/08/2017, 08:08 PM »
True that :), I still have people who screw up their face when I mention my love for specialty coffee, roasting and brewing haha.

I've skipped coffee for today to detox myself (had FAR too many coffees yesterday and was quite nauseous haha..), so back into it tomorrow, see how we go!
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Simon

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« Reply #17 on: 04/08/2017, 05:23 PM »
Pulled some shots today, they came out mostly ok, a bit fast. I was actually low on beans so couldn't really fill the hopper, so tried my hand at single dosing (trying to see what results I get compared to hopper filling-dosing)

I purged with 10 beans or so first and swept it all out, and single dosing definitely produced a much faster pour (finally experienced it myself, I won't ask that question anymore haha).

I kept everything the same for all three shots (dose, grind setting and distribution method), except the last shot I tried nutating:

-23g gr1.4 y54.5g 23s (strange fast pour, bit sour)

#same everything
-23g gr1.4 y49g 23s (similar pour, quite nice flavours in milk)

#change distribution: same everything else, but added in nutation
-23g gr1.4 y42g 27s

Nutating definitely slowed the pour right down and seemed to pour much better.

So lesson here for myself: experiment with keeping everything consistent and change only one variable very slightly (either dose, grind setting, or distribution method).

Also, single dosing seemed to produce a much faster pour when compared to dosing from a hopper full of beans.

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« Reply #18 on: 04/08/2017, 07:21 PM »
...So lesson here for myself: experiment with keeping everything consistent and change only one variable very slightly...
Correct re changing only one variable Simon :)
My suggestion is to make that variable the grinder setting.

Extract from my training page:
"I think of the grinder hopper collar as the steering wheel. By following my steps you will minimise variables so that you can "drive" your espresso machine by changing the grinder setting. Making your espresso Without a consistent workflow is like driving your car with with a jelly steering wheel."

Cheers :)
Paul

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Simon

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« Reply #19 on: 04/08/2017, 08:56 PM »
Hahaha well put :P, and yeah good idea sticking to changing grind.

When you change grind setting with the Quamar, do you purge a certain amount/for a certain time to get 'old-grind' grounds out, or do just truck on through without purging and the new grind change pour will happen when it happens?

Am just trying to gather a consistent routine/workflow that

a) Gets exceptional and consistent results (obviously)

b) Allows for easy tweaking to be made when necessary

c) Eliminates old grinds from the grinder (related to a) and b) hehe)


Am considering just a quick sweep of the chute (I've removed that metal guard on the inside of the dosing chamber, didn't seem to do anything) then purge with the new grind. Just unsure on purge time needed (without being wasteful...)
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« Reply #20 on: 05/08/2017, 02:57 PM »
Ok another update, tried some other beans today, pulled 6 shots, here's how they went: (the way I record results is e.g. 23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s means: I dosed 23 grams coffee, on grind setting 1.5 on the quamar, yielded 33.3g espresso in 30 seconds)

SHOT 1
#Distribution technique: dose 3/4 full, collapse, dose rest, collapse, tamp.

-23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s (dead spot in centre most of the time, but decent pour otherwise... tasted nice. Will change distribution due to dead spot)

SHOT 2
#Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, vertical collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, tamp.
Ground one notch coarser:

-23g gr2.1 y51g 25s (pour was a bit more central, but strange pour.. aLOT faster... a little sour, okayish flavour..)

SHOT 3
#try same again to eliminate chance of this being due to old grinds (I always purge a few grams anyway)

-23g gr2.1 y54.6g 23s (roughly same as last shot.. bit flat in flavour.. piccolo was really nice..)

SHOT 4
#sweep chute when changing grind... back to original grind (one notch finer) to see what happens...

*-23g gr1.5 y50g 30s (bit of a dead spot in centre of the pour.. okayish still.. nice flavours. Pretty big variation volume-wise between this and last shot...)

SHOT 5
#strange that shot 1 and shot 4 had these VERY different results... maybe the first shot was always going to be dodgy as it needed to get used to it... grind one notch finer

#Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, horizontal taps to level out, collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, collapse, tamp.

-23g gr1.4 y27g 34s (interesting... maybe because the grounds were more uniform and level in the basket because of the distribution technique that's why it slowed right down... OR the steps are just too large on the grinder???)

SHOT 6
#grind one notch coarser

-23g gr1.5 y41g 30s (dead spot at right hand side.. I dosed a bit too much so maybe I slightly compressed that side a little bit when swiping off?? It looked more flattened so to speak...


So..... haha.... at this point I was a bit frustrated... I don't know what's going on... a few theories:

1) The first shot may always be a bit dodgy perhaps, need to purge more before the very first shot maybe?

2) Just need to work on distribution and a level even density of coffee within the basket.

3) The steps on the Quamar are too large.


The coffee I was using for my other post was Campos Superior Blend, and today's was a Columbian bean from Campos, freshly roasted as well on the 25th July (so 8 days postroast) so I wouldn't think it's the coffee that's the issue...

Any help in figuring all this out would be super duper appreciated.... soooo puzzled and scratching the noggin at the moment!

Thanks so much for any assistance at all guys

In my7 experience columbian beans can take 10 days or more post roast before they flip from sour to sweetness so it could be that the flavours are a bit dull as the bean itself is still vigorously degassing, not sure of the exact process but I imagine it as the degassing process brings the oils to the surface of the bean and this is where the majority of the favour is coming from

for the record i pretty much use the shot one method that you referred to exclusively, and then make adjustments to the grind as required, that way you can potentially rule out technique as a causal influence in shot quality - which leaves roast profile, particle grind size, dosage, and days post roast, along with individual bean variations including processing methods all as potential factors impacting upon shot quality!

Of course machine specifications and pairing with grinder goes along way to ironing out potential problems as well...


Best,

P
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Simon

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« Reply #21 on: 05/08/2017, 03:21 PM »
Ah ok thanks for that, they were about 8 days post-roast at the time, but definitely will keep that in mind.

Ah right, do you find that distribution method to cause a dead spot in any of your pours though? That's what I kept getting, and I'm thinking it's because when the grinds pile up in the middle, then I vertical collapse, it semicompresses the grounds moreso in the middle. Then when I finish the full dose and collapse again, it just emphasises the denser middle part of the puck... Have you found this at all, or do you get a nice even extraction out of the basket? Unless I'm doing it wrong haha..

I used a naked for all these so I could see the dead spot clearly.. And the dead spot seemed to go away when I introduced the horizontal tapping to move the grounds around first...

Yeah I want to just have one solid distribution method that will get the basket nice and even, so I can eliminate that as a variable. May have to go back to nutation or so like I used to if this doesn't work...

Thanks Patrick :)
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« Reply #22 on: 06/08/2017, 10:31 AM »
Simon,
Coffee can take more than 8 days to stabilise.

There are many factors at play but beyond the origin and varietal it's the roast profile, roast platform and the period between roast and pack that affects this mostly.

Every roaster does things differently, so there are no general rules.

If your coffee was roasted lighter, then day 8 would most likely be in a volatile zone where the beans are going through there last set of changes before reaching a more stable state.

Sometimes, this zone (days from roasting) can be the most frustrating and then the next day or so the beans are a lot easier and predictable to work with. The difference can be dramatic.

If you are chucking donuts, then coarse your grind, distribute more carefully (you are already onto a winner there), up dose and tamp a bit harder.

Some machines also have a tendency promote donuts more so that other gear due to the dispersement, shower screen, head room geometry and a few other techie reasons, so it's not the end of the world and just a case of working around this symptom by testing various dose depths.




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« Reply #23 on: 06/08/2017, 12:43 PM »
Wow, thanks for that mycuppa that was very helpful!

Yes I've noticed the dramatic difference between a few days of resting haha, it's as though the coffee after it's roasted has a bad night's sleep every night, and when you try wake it up it's like "NO I need just a bit more sleep!" XD

Yeah definitely looking at distribution more. With the new grinder because of the push button, it does amount to all the coffee being dropped into the middle of the basket (as it's hard to move the portafilter around to dose evenly). One way around this is what i wrote, by stopping to horizontal tap, but another way is I'm gonna tape down the push button and use the on/off switch instead.

A little mod but it'll allow me to move the portafilter around a bit while its grinding and dose more evenly. Chuck in a collapse halfway through and a potential nutation at the end, I think that'll be my standard ;)

I have a full kilo of Ethiopian Harrar Longberry beans I'm gonna crack open on Wednesday to play with. It'll be 7 days post-roast, so we'll see if it plays nicely, and what results will cometh :).

Appreciate the help muchly! Keep em coming y'all if inclined
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« Reply #24 on: 09/08/2017, 01:19 PM »
Ahhhh. Ethiopian Harrar is a personal fave :)
Enjoy.


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