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Author Topic: Hooked on reverse plunge  (Read 4408 times)

old boy brewer

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« on: 09/11/2017, 01:43 AM »
Since posting the "reverse plunge" technique for the Bodum, I've refined the timing and coarseness of the grind accordingly.  It all started with the article form "coffeenavigated.net/grinder/fines".

Using the knowledge from this, the reverse plunge offers a great tasting coffee.  I'm hooked.
Pour the water onto the grinds
Gently stir to soak & start timer
Plunge the grinds to the bottom and then slightly lift.
After 4 minutes 20 - 25 seconds, lift the plunger fully and then plunge down.


"The whole world knew that it was impossible except for the fool who went ahead and did it anyway"  Marcel Pagnol

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #1 on: 11/11/2017, 05:52 PM »
Ah I've gotta give this method a go, sounds awesome. I haven't used the plunger in awhile, reckon I'll roast up some filter/lighter roast and go nuts.

So the purpose of this method is to mainly prevent the fines from separating from the brew and hanging around at the top, is that right? Am not too knowledgeable about the fines aspect that's often talked about in the circles...

And I've read many times that apparently extraction stops occurring when you plunge to the bottom, which I STILL can't wrap my head around to be honest.. it's not like it's in two separate canisters, and the grounds are still in contact with the water.. although perhaps because the grounds are all 'bunched' together it lowers total surface area of the grinds in direct contact with the water (almost like making it whole beans again hehe ;) ).

But the method sounds interesting mate! I reckon if you love plunger you'd LOVE Aeropress if you haven't got one already... it's inexpensive, sooooo many different ways you can experiment and variables to play with, and you can even get a metal filter instead of using the paper filters so that the brew has a bit more body like a plunger.
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

old boy brewer

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #2 on: 13/11/2017, 11:23 PM »
I think I'll get an Aeropress to try.  You've got the right idea about the fines.  I love to experiment and after research, I found that the volume of water that is actually absorbed for extraction by the grinds is not a great deal, approximately 20% of the weight of the grinds I believe.  Therefore, the total volume of the water within the Bodum is not required (The way I see it).  So I thought I'd give this a go and it works very well for me.  Getting the right grind and timing is important.  After a slow pour into the grinds, I stir them to remove as much gas as possible because pushing down the plunger can be difficult.  If that happens, I slightly lift the plunger to release a bit of gas and start again.  My coffee always comes out with wonderful chocolate notes on the finish.  Luv it!  One change I made though is to not push the plunger all the way to the bottom rather than "slightly" lift from the bottom. I leave an inch or so.  After approximately 4 minutes 20 seconds, I lift the plunger to the top and then slowly plunge down.  I then pour the coffee into a thermal carafe because it will continue to extract.  If it can extract with my method, it surly will extract after plunging. Thanks for the tip on the aeropress. Haven't used one before but I love to experiment.   Roger


quote author=Simon link=topic=6341.msg57419#msg57419 date=1510383127]
Ah I've gotta give this method a go, sounds awesome. I haven't used the plunger in awhile, reckon I'll roast up some filter/lighter roast and go nuts.

So the purpose of this method is to mainly prevent the fines from separating from the brew and hanging around at the top, is that right? Am not too knowledgeable about the fines aspect that's often talked about in the circles...

And I've read many times that apparently extraction stops occurring when you plunge to the bottom, which I STILL can't wrap my head around to be honest.. it's not like it's in two separate canisters, and the grounds are still in contact with the water.. although perhaps because the grounds are all 'bunched' together it lowers total surface area of the grinds in direct contact with the water (almost like making it whole beans again hehe ;) ).

But the method sounds interesting mate! I reckon if you love plunger you'd LOVE Aeropress if you haven't got one already... it's inexpensive, sooooo many different ways you can experiment and variables to play with, and you can even get a metal filter instead of using the paper filters so that the brew has a bit more body like a plunger.
[/quote]
"The whole world knew that it was impossible except for the fool who went ahead and did it anyway"  Marcel Pagnol

LeroyC

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #3 on: 14/11/2017, 07:28 AM »
After trying a few different plunger methods, including one not dissimilar to this, I’ve settled on the one that James Hoffmann posted on both his Jimseven website and YouTube channel about a year ago. Chris Baca also posted a very similar one on his YouTube channel, and I’m sure others have shared it as well. It’s well worth a look as I find it gives a very clean and flavourful cup. The basic premise is that you don’t plunge the filter at all, you merely sit it on top and use it as a filter when you pour out the drink. There’s more to it than that so if anyone’s interested check it out:

https://youtu.be/st571DYYTR8
I love coffee. It's as simple as that.

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #4 on: 14/11/2017, 09:44 AM »
Ah nice, thanks for the info Roger. I remember I started out the coffee journey with the plunger so it holds a special place hehe, would be nice revisit it.

And yeah I've been meaning to try that method too Leroy, I love the simplicity of the plunger, just not too many extra additional parts to it, it's much more straight forward and easy to do.

I've got only a small amount of a nice Ethiopia Sidamo Ardi Natural roasted for filter, if I don't run out I may whip out the plunger :D

Edit: Ah and Roger I forgot to ask, what ratio do you use coffee to water? (15g to 250g water etc)
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #5 on: 15/11/2017, 12:12 AM »
I've been doing the inverted or reverse plunge on my aeropress!

always changing it up a bit but currently I'm working with 20g of semi-coarse grind into an inverted aeropress then 30 sec bloom and 200ml of water in at 80C for 70 seconds, then invert on top of cup for  a 30 second slow plunge extraction !

loving the more rounded flavours with greater depth on the mid palate and less astringency

it's my new favourite thing at the moment!

pat

"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

LeroyC

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #6 on: 15/11/2017, 05:30 AM »
I've been doing the inverted or reverse plunge on my aeropress!

always changing it up a bit but currently I'm working with 20g of semi-coarse grind into an inverted aeropress then 30 sec bloom and 200ml of water in at 80C for 70 seconds, then invert on top of cup for  a 30 second slow plunge extraction !

loving the more rounded flavours with greater depth on the mid palate and less astringency

it's my new favourite thing at the moment!

pat

I’d been doing something along these lines for quite a while but with just slightly longer brew times and probably a slightly finer grind by the sound of it. Generally I was doing the initial 50g if water for up to 45sec then total brew time was between 2min and 3min depending on the coffee. However the other day I got distracted and the initial 50g brew ended up being about 90sec long before I added the rest of the water. I got to 3min before I tipped and pressed it. I was amazed how different it was from my usual with this small change. Much sweeter and just nicer all round, so I’m going to be doing some more experimenting for sure.
I love coffee. It's as simple as that.

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #7 on: 15/11/2017, 09:56 AM »
Ah nice, yeah the inverted method has really taken off and it's the one I primarily use, and it sorta makes sense to do it that way so there's full immersion with nothing leaking out like the standard method. But that being said I've still had stunning brews from the standard method.

I've been experimenting with some recipes from the World Aeropress Champions and far out they makes a lovely brew..

(I know we're off topic now but hey we crazy hehe)

E.g. 2016 Aeropress Champion winning recipe (and yeah it's a massive dose haha but there's a reason for it, I usually downgrade it to about 23.3g whilst still keeping the same ratio)

35 grams, medium-coarse grind, rinse filter, 84 degrees.

Pour 150g water for 15s
Stir with chopsticks for 20s (stir until 35s)
Put lid on, invert at 1m, give it a swirl, press for 30s.
Total brew time 1:30.
Add extra 100-120g water, taste. If not yet, add more water.

And he added these notes too:
"This big dose, coarse grinding, and low temperature make for the gentle extraction. Coffee is well under extracted in this method too, and the big dose compensates for it. This way you can make the concentrate pretty much however you wish; different grinds, temperatures, doses. You can play more with the recipe -it's not set."
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #8 on: 16/11/2017, 08:15 PM »
got myself a staresso in the mail yesterday been playing around with settings for that one perfect shot of espresso - only 10g coffee in for 30ml out so limited variables to play with but i love that its portable and hand pump activated which means that im going to be sorted for my next camping trip!!!

Pat
"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #9 on: 16/11/2017, 08:53 PM »
got myself a staresso in the mail yesterday been playing around with settings for that one perfect shot of espresso - only 10g coffee in for 30ml out so limited variables to play with but i love that its portable and hand pump activated which means that im going to be sorted for my next camping trip!!!

Pat
Ah wow haven't heard of this one.. just looked it up, 15-20 bar pressure, impressive for a little maker! Decent price too. Wonder how it differs from the nanopresso etc
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

old boy brewer

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #10 on: 17/11/2017, 12:17 AM »
Hi Simon.  Good to see your voice.  I use my large Bodum 1300ml to 40 gm coffee.  I have looked at many ratios and tried them but this ratio is what I prefer.  I have a ROK manual grinder which I love. Getting the correct coarseness of grind was challenging as the timing goes with the grind.  I found that when I "slowly" pour the water (97C) into the "warm"  Bodum, it allows for a good soak.  Then I use a spoon to disperse the foam and get more soaking. I then start the timer. I then plunge to almost the bottom, leaving a slight space.  After 4 minutes 20 seconds, I lift the plunger and then plunge down.  I always get that wonderful full bodied flavour with a lasting chocolate finish.  I now find myself drinking too much coffee because I can't get enough of it.
Cheers
Roger

Ah nice, thanks for the info Roger. I remember I started out the coffee journey with the plunger so it holds a special place hehe, would be nice revisit it.

And yeah I've been meaning to try that method too Leroy, I love the simplicity of the plunger, just not too many extra additional parts to it, it's much more straight forward and easy to do.

I've got only a small amount of a nice Ethiopia Sidamo Ardi Natural roasted for filter, if I don't run out I may whip out the plunger :D

Edit: Ah and Roger I forgot to ask, what ratio do you use coffee to water? (15g to 250g water etc)
"The whole world knew that it was impossible except for the fool who went ahead and did it anyway"  Marcel Pagnol

old boy brewer

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #11 on: 17/11/2017, 12:18 AM »
I've got to get that Aeropress. Thanks for the info.

I've been doing the inverted or reverse plunge on my aeropress!

always changing it up a bit but currently I'm working with 20g of semi-coarse grind into an inverted aeropress then 30 sec bloom and 200ml of water in at 80C for 70 seconds, then invert on top of cup for  a 30 second slow plunge extraction !

loving the more rounded flavours with greater depth on the mid palate and less astringency

it's my new favourite thing at the moment!

pat
"The whole world knew that it was impossible except for the fool who went ahead and did it anyway"  Marcel Pagnol

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #12 on: 17/11/2017, 10:19 AM »


Hi Simon.  Good to see your voice.  I use my large Bodum 1300ml to 40 gm coffee.  I have looked at many ratios and tried them but this ratio is what I prefer.  I have a ROK manual grinder which I love. Getting the correct coarseness of grind was challenging as the timing goes with the grind.  I found that when I "slowly" pour the water (97C) into the "warm"  Bodum, it allows for a good soak.  Then I use a spoon to disperse the foam and get more soaking. I then start the timer. I then plunge to almost the bottom, leaving a slight space.  After 4 minutes 20 seconds, I lift the plunger and then plunge down.  I always get that wonderful full bodied flavour with a lasting chocolate finish.  I now find myself drinking too much coffee because I can't get enough of it.
Cheers
Roger

Hehe ah nice sounds delish. Ah wow that's quite a low ratio, but if you enjoy that that's all that matters! Cheers for the info will have to play around with that, and yeah with Aeropress you can basically go from using espresso fine grind all the way up to plunger grind, so much versatility and tinkering :)
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #13 on: 18/11/2017, 12:54 PM »
Ah nice, yeah the inverted method has really taken off and it's the one I primarily use, and it sorta makes sense to do it that way so there's full immersion with nothing leaking out like the standard method. But that being said I've still had stunning brews from the standard method.

I've been experimenting with some recipes from the World Aeropress Champions and far out they makes a lovely brew..

(I know we're off topic now but hey we crazy hehe)

E.g. 2016 Aeropress Champion winning recipe (and yeah it's a massive dose haha but there's a reason for it, I usually downgrade it to about 23.3g whilst still keeping the same ratio)

35 grams, medium-coarse grind, rinse filter, 84 degrees.

Pour 150g water for 15s
Stir with chopsticks for 20s (stir until 35s)
Put lid on, invert at 1m, give it a swirl, press for 30s.
Total brew time 1:30.
Add extra 100-120g water, taste. If not yet, add more water.

And he added these notes too:
"This big dose, coarse grinding, and low temperature make for the gentle extraction. Coffee is well under extracted in this method too, and the big dose compensates for it. This way you can make the concentrate pretty much however you wish; different grinds, temperatures, doses. You can play more with the recipe -it's not set."

making one now im gumnna play around with a slightly lower dose and less water and see what I get!

P
"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #14 on: 18/11/2017, 12:58 PM »
here's a photo of my staresso in action - not a bad little shot of espresso!
"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #15 on: 18/11/2017, 01:54 PM »
making one now im gumnna play around with a slightly lower dose and less water and see what I get!

P
Ah nice enjoy! And a lot of people say that they tend to get better results from brewing Aeropress as a concentrate first, THEN adding extra water to the concentrate to lengthen (I think the manual mainly describes this method), apparently it can too easily overextract or something when adding too much water to brew, but I've had great results with both styles.
here's a photo of my staresso in action - not a bad little shot of espresso!
That looks awesome, a very elegant looking device ay!
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #16 on: 18/11/2017, 02:47 PM »
Ah nice enjoy! And a lot of people say that they tend to get better results from brewing Aeropress as a concentrate first, THEN adding extra water to the concentrate to lengthen (I think the manual mainly describes this method), apparently it can too easily overextract or something when adding too much water to brew, but I've had great results with both styles.That looks awesome, a very elegant looking device ay!

yep tried the updosed (35g) version with the reverse plunge - then added 150ml of water after extracting in stages, made for a great brew with loads of natural sweetness and no bitterness at all, which was exactly what I was craving!

"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #17 on: 18/11/2017, 03:07 PM »


yep tried the updosed (35g) version with the reverse plunge - then added 150ml of water after extracting in stages, made for a great brew with loads of natural sweetness and no bitterness at all, which was exactly what I was craving!

Ah that's awesome, yeah I love the thinking behind the recipe.. Can understand how he won the comp with that one!
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #18 on: 22/11/2017, 07:32 PM »
ok I think I've found my new favourite recipe using the inverted method in the aeropress:

26g in medium grind
30ml water pre-infusion for 30sec
150ml to top slowly pouring and stirring as I go
water temperature 90C
coffee volume out 140ml
steep for one minute and 30 sec and slow extract for another 30sec

stop just before extraction is completed

top up in cup with 20ml of water

tried this today and it knocked it out of the park - stand out coffee with a profile that I'm really drawn to

might not be to everyones taste but jeez it works for me!


pat
"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #19 on: 22/11/2017, 09:41 PM »


ok I think I've found my new favourite recipe using the inverted method in the aeropress:

26g in medium grind
30ml water pre-infusion for 30sec
150ml to top slowly pouring and stirring as I go
water temperature 90C
coffee volume out 140ml
steep for one minute and 30 sec and slow extract for another 30sec

stop just before extraction is completed

top up in cup with 20ml of water

tried this today and it knocked it out of the park - stand out coffee with a profile that I'm really drawn to

might not be to everyones taste but jeez it works for me!


pat

Ah that sounds great, I'm definitely gonna give that a go! Gotta roast up some more but thanks for sharing that.

It's bizarre how some recipes I've seen say to not stir, just pour water in, but it's quite visible looking through the see-through Aeropress that the water just doesn't penetrate the coffee enough and there are clear dry spots.

And I'm loving lower temperature brews at the moment, makes such a massive difference, and it's cool seeing comp winners recipes even in the 70 degree ball park!
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

askthe coffeeguy

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #20 on: 23/11/2017, 12:10 AM »

Ah that sounds great, I'm definitely gonna give that a go! Gotta roast up some more but thanks for sharing that.

It's bizarre how some recipes I've seen say to not stir, just pour water in, but it's quite visible looking through the see-through Aeropress that the water just doesn't penetrate the coffee enough and there are clear dry spots.

And I'm loving lower temperature brews at the moment, makes such a massive difference, and it's cool seeing comp winners recipes even in the 70 degree ball park!

yeah have to say I stir quite vigorously all the way through and i think i would change my brew temp depending upon the roast im using definitely a lower temp for lighter roasts but the beans that im using at the moment are a bit darker than what I would usually use and the higher brew temp seems to pull the depth but not bitterness or astringency out of the roast

might drop the brew temp a bit tomorrow though and see if i get the same results!

P
"The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema..."

Simon

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Hooked on reverse plunge
« Reply #21 on: 23/11/2017, 09:28 AM »
Ah right yeah I wasn't sure what effect temp would have when working with different roast depths, I'll definitely keep that in mind :)
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

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