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Author Topic: Naked portafilter diagnostics  (Read 1338 times)

West Village

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« on: 25/03/2017, 06:01 PM »
What exactly should I be looking for in diagnosing the perfect distribution and thus pour from a naked portafilter pour ?

As I understand, if I see any squirts this could indicate channelling? But does it indicate anything else?

Some questions that are going through my mind are below. Whilst most I can assume can be put down to uneven distribution I don't want to over diagnose a potentially good pour. So how do I know it is a good pour?

1. Barren spots where no extraction occurs indicate?
2. Cone forming and staying off centre indicates?
3.Two cones during duration of pour indicates?
4. How long should cone take to form and what does it indicate if it takes to long to form?
5. Extraction forms outer ring first before the centre extracts. This indicates?

Could this be a repository of information for anyone else with questions/answers on what to look for with regards to the perfect naked extraction pour.


I love it how coffee tricks me into thinking I'm in a good mood for exactly 27 minutes.

Brett H

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #1 on: 25/03/2017, 08:45 PM »
Wow... science..... I'm out  :rofl:

KBean is a bona fide scientist... he will be well placed to comment.  For me, with the VST I found my best tasting shots extracted evenly across the bottom of the basket before funnelling from the centre of the basket.  Two funnels initialy becoming one made little to no discernible difference to the taste for y rudimentary palate. 
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

Koffee Kosmo

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #2 on: 25/03/2017, 11:06 PM »
Aim for something like this photo
It's from my Strega

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 5 Hand grinders:
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West Village

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #3 on: 26/03/2017, 07:58 AM »
That looks like perfection! Stunning looking pour .

This morning I felt the colour blonde on my pour a little quickly (started around the 18 sec mark) . No squirts which was a good sign. So I'll adjust my grind a bit tighter for my 2nd for the day.

When I inspect the puck there is always a side divot where I assume channelling would be occurring always in the same spot near my handle. I thought it was my distribution technique but I have been using wdt and haven't had any squirts ( not the other kind of squirts)  for weeks now. So I'm thinking if this is an overdosing issue where I may be disturbing the top of the puck near the handle everytime I insert it. I'll take a photo of the next one.

I dose about 20g in the stock diadema baskets. I might pull that back to 19grams also
I love it how coffee tricks me into thinking I'm in a good mood for exactly 27 minutes.

West Village

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #4 on: 26/03/2017, 08:14 AM »
2nd pour for the day. Taste is telling me to tighten grind again. Little on the sour side.
I love it how coffee tricks me into thinking I'm in a good mood for exactly 27 minutes.

Koffee Kosmo

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #5 on: 26/03/2017, 09:12 AM »
Is your tamped coffee puc level
Lift the porta filter with tamper in position after tamping  to eye level and inspect

Sour taste is more than likely water temperature related - to cool = sour

There is nothing wrong with an 18 to 20 second pour
I normally work on 20 sec

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 5 Hand grinders:
Web site - www.koffeekosmo.com
Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

West Village

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #6 on: 26/03/2017, 01:39 PM »
Thanks KK . I had The machine on for a good hour before use. Can you over do it on a cooling flush with a HX and bring down the brew temp to much with over flushing?

The colour of the pour I posted above was a bit yellower than the previous shot as an observation.
I love it how coffee tricks me into thinking I'm in a good mood for exactly 27 minutes.

Koffee Kosmo

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #7 on: 26/03/2017, 04:59 PM »
Yes one can overdo the cooling flush
The colour of your pour is determined by the roast depth

Note on " The blonding stage " and knowing when it starts
Blonding coincides with thinning of the coffee liquid at the end of the pour
So you will see the coffee go thin and turn wispy blond at the same time

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 5 Hand grinders:
Web site - www.koffeekosmo.com
Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

mycuppa

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #8 on: 26/03/2017, 06:58 PM »
I would be hesitant relating early blonding to a situation on the machine such as lower temp.

Unlikely the case if the machine had been on for an hour as a cooling flush generally stabilizes the heat consistently throughout the system rather than draining heat - well, that's what happens on a good machine that is setup properly.

If you draw too much water from the boiler via the hot water spout (not the brew group) or steam a big milk jug that causes the boiler to refill with cooler water, then you might have a problem on some smaller machines,

Blonding and/or sourness are more likely to be technique (dose/grind) or beans.

Brett H

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #9 on: 26/03/2017, 09:48 PM »
Agreed!  My money is on dose and grind.  Go fine my good man.... I aim to choke then back off but I'm a cowboy with little respect for art or science.  I.just.want.coffee :D
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

West Village

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #10 on: 27/03/2017, 06:56 AM »
Absolutely I want coffee. I just wanna make sure it's as good as I can make it to do justice to the beans. Plus it's also part "Toy factor" with the bottomless.

So after having a play over the weekend I've come to what I think are some conclusions ( certainly not mutually exclusive) to my questions above. Hoping you all may be able to chime in and steer me in the right direction.


1. Barren spots where no extraction occurs could indicate bad distribution/uneven density of grounds
2. Cone forming and staying off centre could indicate uneven tamping technique
3.Two cones during duration of pour could indicate bad distribution/uneven density
4. How long should cone take to form and what does it indicate if it takes to long to form? Does/Should  this matter ? I.e the quicker the better?
5. Extraction forms outer ring first before the centre extracts. This could indicate either overdosing or uneven distribution towards outer baskets

Thoughts?
I love it how coffee tricks me into thinking I'm in a good mood for exactly 27 minutes.

borat123

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #11 on: 25/04/2017, 08:29 PM »
Just use a distribution tool like an OCD, and forget about the shape / position of the cone.

Sour vs bitter is purely a function of under vs over extraction and an outcome of your dose|yield ratio. Look at Matt Perger's method on baristahustle for a simple three step method that works.

10 second summary is: (1) dose exactly to the size of the basket, (2) adjust yield to find the sweet spot, and (3) adjust finer on the grind one step at a time to simultaneously increase strength & extraction. When it tastes bad, go back to the previous setting and you're done!

After teaching this method for the past few years I can tell you the biggest obstacle for most students is the need to train their palate to identify 'sour' vs 'bitter' as tasted in coffee, and that sour <> acidity...

☕️☕️☕️


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Simon

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Naked portafilter diagnostics
« Reply #12 on: 29/08/2017, 05:35 PM »
Absolutely I want coffee. I just wanna make sure it's as good as I can make it to do justice to the beans. Plus it's also part "Toy factor" with the bottomless.

So after having a play over the weekend I've come to what I think are some conclusions ( certainly not mutually exclusive) to my questions above. Hoping you all may be able to chime in and steer me in the right direction.


1. Barren spots where no extraction occurs could indicate bad distribution/uneven density of grounds
2. Cone forming and staying off centre could indicate uneven tamping technique
3.Two cones during duration of pour could indicate bad distribution/uneven density
4. How long should cone take to form and what does it indicate if it takes to long to form? Does/Should  this matter ? I.e the quicker the better?
5. Extraction forms outer ring first before the centre extracts. This could indicate either overdosing or uneven distribution towards outer baskets

Thoughts?
Would like to bump this thread up haha, as I'd love to get clarification on this, specifically West Villages 5 points he outlined, and moreso how distribution technique can affect this. I'm struggling in finding a decent, repeatable distribution technique, it doesn't seem to be getting consistent pours.

Keep getting a dead spot in the centre of a bottomless portafilter extraction, it sometimes eventually comes together quickly, but sometimes it comes at 18s or even 24s into a pour when nothing has changed in distribution...

My current distribution is dose until 3/4 full, vertical collapse. When full do some horizontal taps to hopefully even out the coffee in the lower and upper parts of the pile, vertical collapse, stockfleth and tamp. Sometimes this works well, sometimes it doesn't. Coming to more central earlier in the pour at times, and multiple streams for most of the pour at others.

Something I'd love to chat about is if clumping affects distribution at all? If there's more clumping at one grindup, the horizontal taps may not really allow proper evening out/movement of the grounds, because the big clumps might be in the way and don't move around that easily...

And does it MATTER if it comes central I wonder? Makes sense that it would be a more even extraction if it came central rather than multiple streams...

Again, am just trying to determine a consistent distribution method with my newish machine and new grinder. Seems that everyone has something that works well for them, just wondering if clumping does indeed change how one should distribute, due to those clumps not really moving around to distribute properly/blocking other grounds from moving.

Thanks y'all!

*Edit: and yes, I plan on trying out a whole bunch, am not just here to theorise about it. But would be great to get different perspectives on pros and cons of each (or just what you use), and what distribution styles are good/not good for what situations, e.g. clumping
Profitec Pro 500, Rancilio Rocky Doser Grinder, 58.5mm Pullman Tamper, V60, Aeropress, Plunger, Behmor 1600

Bezzera

 

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