Grind verse tamp pressure

Mcgee

Hi all,
Really new to the espresso making scene.
By current equipment is BES900 and smart grinder. using the standard settings on the machine and dual basket.
Im using Campos beans (roasted last tuesday).

So, I can get the same flow rate when changing how course the grind by also changing how much tamp pressure to use.
My question is how do I know what is better, what should I look for in determining which is the better way to go?
i.e courser grind with more tamp pressure or finer grind with less tamp pressure?

Thanks in advance.

Bryan

sidoney

I'm no expert, but the way I understand it is to keep your dose and tamp as consistent as you can and change your grind as needed. By only changing one variable then things are more controllable and trackable. People do vary the dose but that's generally for a reason in order to achieve a particular aim.

Brett_H

Hi and welcome McGee! Okay... so how long are several pieces of string eh? I'm not being flippant because espresso extraction is a bit of a dark art and just when you think you are 'all over it' something changes and so do your results: sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. The easiest way to get the best results is limit your variables. If you keep everything including tamp pressure the same and change only the grind being guided by your taste this will get you with your gear to a good result with minimum fuss. I'd say you're already there if not close and so now are noticing the change of the other variables. IMHO tamp consistency/compaction is important for repeatability, but I find a finer grind and a lighter tamp work best for my tastes. Some even get great results with the rubbish tamp on the front of commercial grinders! Greg Pullman is the expert in this area and has made a remarkable business out of selling artisan tampers (I'd never part with mine); however, I've got great extractions tamping with my thumbs. Is it repeatable/reliable.... for me most certainly not but a bit of fun to try in the family cafe when the line is out the door and some idiot tech has put a screw in the collar of the grinder to stop people adjusting it between visits :mad: (problem solved with my screen door key... :thumb🙂 I've had about three hours sleeeep so hope this make sense and keeps the dialogue going. The easiest answer is let your taste be the guide but where's the fun in that eh!

sidoney wrote:

I'm no expert, but the way I understand it is to keep your dose and tamp as consistent as you can and change your grind as needed. By only changing one variable then things are more controllable and trackable. People do vary the dose but that's generally for a reason in order to achieve a particular aim.

BEaten to the punch... spot on Sidoney! This is what I should have said!!

Dry_bean

Morning McGee, My method is to use the same amount of beans each time (in my case 18 grams) vary the grind and use consistent tamp pressure, no need for gorilla force, cant give a weight but I suspect about 8 to 10kg and try to tamp level. 🙂

UNM

I'm no expert either, but I do have a certificate that says I am qualified to prepare and serve espresso 😛 Neither is really better as such. As others.have said, it is about consistency. Most people find it easier to adjust grind settings than tamp force and remain consistent. Why tamp at all? Tamping is there simply to compress the grounds into a solid mass so that when hit with pressurised water they don't move around. By the end of a shot the grounds have been compressed by 9 bar force for 30 sec. I tend to tamp quite hard, as I found out when on my barista training course. I find sticking to a heavy tamp gives me better consistency, but others find it easier to be consistent with gentle pressure. If faced with a full doser of ground coffee, I can modify my tamp to suit.

sidoney

I can't remember where I saw it, maybe on this forum! But I saw some data that tracked how much compression was achieved at different tamp pressures. At the lighter pressure there was greater compression change per change in unit of pressure. At the higher pressures, there was much less compression change per unit of pressure, as the grinds were reaching their compression limit. So probably, above a certain point, some tamp pressure differences don't create a big degree of effect in how compressed the grinds are. That might be one reason why it's easier to be consistent in the tamp at the higher pressure levels.

derrilex

The best advice I was given was to tamp like my wife with a broken wrist. I've recently been given the same advice by a certain prominent forum member. Works for me

FreshCoffee2

Mcgee wrote:

.............My question is how do I know what is better, what should I look for in determining which is the better way to go? i.e courser grind with more tamp pressure or finer grind with less tamp pressure?...

Cup the coffee made one way and then the next, and let your palate tell you which way you like it best. WRT your technique, the idea as others have said is then to be as consistent as you can from coffee to coffee, ie in the end it doesnt matter whether you tamp harder or softer, as long as you do it the same all the time. FWIW I like to grind slightly more coarse and I tamp perhaps a little heavier than the "specified" figure.... If you dont have consistency in your technique, you cant compare one coffee to the next. Hope that helps.

UNM

derrilex wrote:

The best advice I was given was to tamp like my wife with a broken wrist. I've recently been given the same advice by a certain prominent forum member. Works for me

Interesting advice. As I don't know how my wife would tamp with a broken wrist, clearly I would need to arrange a demonstration. She may not be amenable to the part where her wrist is actually fractured though :question:

FreshCoffee2

my wife strained a muscle or tendon or whatever in her forearm on Sunday so she is available for an immediate start ;D

UNM

Fresh Coffee wrote:

my wife strained a muscle or tendon or whatever in her forearm on Sunday so she is available for an immediate start ;D

Ouch! Hopefully not severe. Best wishes for a quick recovery.

derrilex

UNM wrote:

Interesting advice. As I don't know how my wife would tamp with a broken wrist, clearly I would need to arrange a demonstration. She may not be amenable to the part where her wrist is actually fractured though :question:

Not even for R & D purposes ? :rofl:

askthecoffeeguy

30mls from 30sec is a good rule of thumb with a bit of variation around this mark perfectly acceptable as long as the results stack up in the cup And I believe that 20 pounds of pressure per square inch in the 'required' amount of tamp pressure required - however I like using my concept art hydraulic tamper (thanks to AM for his trusty repair its still serving me well and better than ever 12 months down the line) - as the pressure is adjustable - but once set its one less variable that you have to contend with...

derrilex

I've never been a fan of the 30/30 description. For a single basket sure but as everyone has basically chucked their singles to the back of the draw, a better rough guide should be 60 ml/30 secs split into 2 cups. Just my 2 cents, I'm sure I'm not the only one that was confused by the 30/30 when starting out ??? ;D

FreshCoffee2

UNM wrote:

Ouch! Hopefully not severe. Best wishes for a quick recovery.

Appreciate the kind thought, thank you 🙂

Mcgee

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm getting much better consistency from one shot to the next at the moment, i think it just comes down to practice. I have lightened my tamp a bit and I am finding this is more repeatable for me.

Koffee_Kosmo

Mcgee wrote:

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm getting much better consistency from one shot to the next at the moment, i think it just comes down to practice. I have lightened my tamp a bit and I am finding this is more repeatable for me.

Its what works for each individual 90% of the process is the same for all - the other 10% is ones own individuality KK

askthecoffeeguy

derrilex wrote:

I've never been a fan of the 30/30 description. For a single basket sure but as everyone has basically chucked their singles to the back of the draw, a better rough guide should be 60 ml/30 secs split into 2 cups. Just my 2 cents, I'm sure I'm not the only one that was confused by the 30/30 when starting out ??? ;D

I use the 30/30 to apply to my double (well triple actually) baskets as well - and I find it works just as well allowing approx ten seconds pre-infusion before the shot starts to run...