Breville BES860 - Troubleshooting shots

ericshum

Hi Guys,

I have been trying to troubleshoot my shots and have decided to get a pressure gauge with numbers to replace the crappy pressure gauge on my machine. Here are some initial findings:

Espresso Machine Model: BES860
Grinder: Breville Smart Grinder
Type of beans: Brazil (Alliance)

Some notes on a few different change in coarseness:
1) 2 dials before finest grind (light tamp): 30 sec / 14 bar - nice crema
2) 4 dials before finest grind (light temp): 19 sec / 9 bar - flows like tap =P

Any idea on improvements?

On the 4 dials before finest grind (light tamp) - pulling a shot using an expobar megacrem produces a result which I think is quite good. 30 secs with nice crema, not sure what the pressure reading was though.

I have not been able to pull a shot using the BES860 to get results close to the one using Expobar Megacrem.

ericshum

I've been doing some research and the BES860 has no mention of any OPV. Only the BES900 has the OPV tuned to output a constant 9bar pressure. Should I investigate installing an OPV you think?

Rider

You mention in the chat box that you are trying to get a great pour from lightly roasted beans... With all due respect, why are you looking for that from an espresso machine?

ericshum

There are certain characteristics that I like from a lighter roast (just before SC) and at times the flavours come out from the expobar but not the Breville. For example I did a blend of 50% PNG / 25% Peru / 25% Guatemala. I would expect quite some nice acidity coming out from the PNG. I got it from the expobar but not the breville. I keep testing all my roasts both with the breville and with the expobar at work (almost everyday). They taste very different and I'm trying to close the gap so I know how I can roast my beans. I would assume some work needs to be done on the BES860 to achieve this, hence me starting to investigate the pressure, and following that, brewing temp.

ericshum

There is also a temperature difference between the BES860 and the Expobar Megacrem. I didnt have a thermocouple to measure the water straight at the head. So this was what I did for both machines. I have coffee thermometer and submerged it in a shot glass with water at about 70dC. Then i ran the water without a portafilter into the shot glass until the temperature stabilizes. Pour the water away and did it over and over again. The conclusion that I arrived at was that the expobar megacrem and the breville BES860 had a 10 degrees difference (expobar's temp was 80dC and the breville bes860 was 70dC). I understand there will be heat losses, etc. I am merely highlighting the fact that there is a 10dC difference here. Another factor that would have caused the difference? I also asked KK briefly in the chat window about preinfusion. I noticed that the Breville BES860 preinfuses. Would this have spoiled the shot?

Koffee_Kosmo

Preinfussion time or contact time of water with the coffee will certainly affect the resulting taste in the cup KK

ericshum

Thanks Ewan for lending me the thermocouple. Tested the machine's temp with a pressurized basket to restrict the flow and thermocouple inserted from the bottom of the portafilter (spout removed). Turns out that after a few cycles, the machine's brew temp would hit 90dC with some fluctuations at the start (preinfusion cycle). Overall I think the brew temp is rather stable, brewing at a max of 90dC. This then leaves me to wonder if I should explore using an OPV. There's really nothing much I can do with the preinfusion cycle which came with the machine I guess? Or can it be bypassed?

Brett_H

EricS wrote:

Thanks Ewan for lending me the thermocouple. Tested the machine's temp with a pressurized basket to restrict the flow and thermocouple inserted from the bottom of the portafilter (spout removed). Turns out that after a few cycles, the machine's brew temp would hit 90dC with some fluctuations at the start (preinfusion cycle). Overall I think the brew temp is rather stable, brewing at a max of 90dC. This then leaves me to wonder if I should explore using an OPV. There's really nothing much I can do with the preinfusion cycle which came with the machine I guess? Or can it be bypassed?

With all due respect I don't think you can expect to get the same quality of shot between a small domestic and a well set up commercial. OPV issues aside, until you scace the machines and plot their temp/pressure/flw gradients and then spend significant time and money closing those gaps you can't guess at what's happening. My suggestion would be to enjoy and celebrate the differences, especially as you have a palate good enough to distinguish them (not everyone does) OR, start test driving machine/grinder combos that are set up to deliver what you want. If found that the easiest way to mod my machine to what I needed was to upgrade it! I saved significant time and frustration also by doing it. HOWEVEVER If you want a project and not a coffee and are prepared to risk the machine, I'd look at hat SHapeshifter did with her BES900 and ensure you know a sparkie who's good at living.

ericshum

Finally got around to installing the OPV last night and I took a quick video just then. Probably not my best shot (camera was running out of battery). Beans were ground using the Breville Smart Grinder at a notch before the max. Videos of the extraction here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST8_I-NOxQI&feature=youtu.be It was probably ~28sec extraction. It was brewing at 9.5bar at start, dropped a little to 9bar towards the middle of the extraction and stayed there. I did realize that the splitting at the spout wasnt't great. Comments on the extraction would be good.

UNM

Dunno, not watched too many videos of shot extraction, but looked a tad fast and watery/thin. Crema seemed to separate really fast. Mind you, I have not videoed any of my pours and things always look different in retrospect. I really ought to learn how to do such things. If that is one notch from the max, I reckon you should shim up the grinder. It ought to be capable of turkish grind (or close) and currently is not.

ericshum

UNM wrote:

Dunno, not watched too many videos of shot extraction, but looked a tad fast and watery/thin. Crema seemed to separate really fast.

The extraction time is around 30secs most of the time with the current grind size and the way I'm tamping it. If I go finer with the same OPV setting, it would reduce the flowrate though, increasing the brew time. Should I increase the pressure being regulated at the OPV then? Or do you think it's my tamp?

mycuppa

Eric. Forget the parameters already. What does it taste like ? That is all that matters.

Brett_H

mycuppa wrote:

Eric. Forget the parameters already. What does it taste like ? That is all that matters.

Spot on Jeff! All credit to you mate for modding and trying to get the best out if the machine. What difference do you taste?

ericshum

The taste is much better (imo) for 2 reasons: 1) It's not over extracted anymore and I could do a 30sec brew easily with a somewhat constant pressure 2) I manual brew, so there's no preinfusion (I experimented with a preinfusion and the taste was bland and there were most roast flavours that came out). I made my partner a cappuccino this morning with a blend (50% Guatemala / 25% PNG / 25% Peru). She loved it. Then I made a latte for her in the evening. She said it was great and she actually asked for another cup. So that's a good sign. She usually can tell when it's bad cup. As with my own tasting notes (I only drink short / long blacks): - The acidity in the cup is definitely cleaner. With the same blend, I would previously taste the saltiness coming out of the PNG (probably due to overextraction). Now that an OPV is installed, that saltiness never came out anymore. Then I tried brewing Market Lane's blend. 2 weeks ago, Cikay came over with a long black and their corresponding blend. The shots I pulled (before OPV mod) were no where as close as the flavours that came out of Market Lane's long black. With the OPV mod last night, the flavours that I remember definitely came out and it was more closely matched. So, all in all, definitely a better cup! I would definitely recommend an OPV mod to any machine that does not have one. Decoupling the pressure from the flowrate is definitely the key to making a better cup.

ericshum

mycuppa wrote:

Eric. Forget the parameters already.

Jeff, to a certain extent, I understand where you're coming from. However, if I didn't have these parameters as a guideline, I wouldn't get to where I am with the machine now. If I didn't attempt to decouple pressure from flow rate, I wouldn't even think about putting an OPV in and I'll just have to live with what I've got. I don't have a couple hundred / thousand dollars lying around to buy a better machine. There are obviously better machines out there and if you think about it, what makes one machine more expensive than another? Don't they all have different 'parameters'? Method of heating, more stable temperature control, more stable pressure, adjustability, size of group head, and the list goes on...they are all parameters... Parameters are also good for interested parties that would like to perform a similar mod. At least there's a guideline. And once the mod has been performed and people understand how things work, they can tune it to their taste buds. Which would probably be what I will do next. I might either go finer with my grind and/or do higher with the brew pressure to see how they all taste. But all in all, I now have more control over my machine. Just my opinion anyway. =)

Brett_H

Now Eric... You did take pictures didn't you :angel:

ericshum

Brett H wrote:

Now Eric... You did take pictures didn't you :angel:

Just opened my machine up again to take a picture:

Brett_H

EricS wrote:

Just opened my machine up again to take a picture:

Sensational! Very neat and tidy. EricS : 1 point, Upgraditis : Nil :thumb: