Is there something wrong with my coffee taste?

C-man

the thing is, even if you dial in supermarket beans It will all be different with good fresh beans, fresh beans will run much slower and not require such a fine grind to slow them down. Good to practice anyway. Q-3 lock the portafilter over until you feel it seal snugly against the seal so it will not leak, Like Brett says don't over do it but seat in in there good.

FreshCoffee2

LMZ wrote:

Q1 - Should tamping be very firm (12-15kgs recommended on google) or more gentle (6kgs). I have used a scale to tamp and it seems to me that the recommended 15kgs is A LOT OF TAMPING. Any advice here? Q2 - Do you start the timer when you flick the pour switch or when it starts pouring in the cup? Q3 - Should the portafilter be firmly locked or just a gentle one hand pull? Maybe my machine being brand new it makes it a bit harder...

1) the idea is not necessaily to tamp to any specified weight, but whatever you do, to do it consistently. This comes with practice and of cpourse you can use a set of bathroom scales to check yourself with when you start. The reason for consistency in tamping weight, is because this directly affects the amount of resistance in the puck, which affects the rate of flow of the coffee through into the cup . Working backwards, your tamping pressure affects your grind. If you are a consistently light tamper, your grind will be a little "finer" than if you were a heavy tamper in which case your grind (for a similar rate of flow through the puck) would be a little more coarse... And after that it doesnt matter so much because it is will all depend on what you think is "good" ih the character of the cuppa. 2) already answered above; 3) What you "feel" when you lock in the group handle will be dependent on the type of group and group handle (the factory machining of each thereof), and the type of group seal (under cup washer or UCW). In a new machine, sometimes the group handle is a little hard to lock in or doesnt go in very far. Sometimes this can be improved by fitting another group seal (different supply, compound or size). But it will change with use. You will find that if you have done your bit well (grind/dose/tamp), even if you cant lock the group handle in very far, it will most probably stay in place and work properly (ie it wont blow off even if it doesnt seem like its gone on far enough), and as already stated it will improve with use. Hope that helps. KK....you've done a really nice thing 😉

C-man

with tamping, seems to me once the puck is compressed with normal tamping, (you can feel this), it becomes solid and even will all my 90kgs of weight it doesn't change after that. so all the difference is in the first little bit I would imagine. Keeping a level puck is important too.

UNM

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

Re - single / double baskets Until you are proficient in using your machine use a double basket for single shots, then when you are confident use the single KK

I mostly agree with the above, except the last bit. When you are proficient. use the double. Coffee is good, why restrict yourself. But more seriously, a quick look at the shape of the two baskets shows that they are very different, therefore behaviour of the fluid flowing through will be different. Think about it - the fluid comes in the top over a certain area. In a double basket it pretty much goes straight through the coffee puck. In a single basket, the fluid starts on a wide surface area, then is concentrated by the narrowing walls and flows faster through the grounds at the bottom of the basket due to the same volume going through a smaller surface area. If you really want a smaller short black, just use part of the shot. This brings me on to another little experiment you may like to try. Pre-warm three espresso cups. When extracting your shot, allow one third of the shot to go into the first, then replace with the second cup for the mid pour and collect the last third in the remaining cup. Taste the three samples separately. They will be noticeably different and you can then use the flavours/aromas/body from each phase of the extraction as a means to tweak your extractions to improve the aspects you like and minimise those you don't.

FreshCoffee2

Oh and following on from my own last post. I only skim this stuff quickly (no disprespect intended) so may have missed it if someone else has already said: Noted you used beans bought from the supermarket to help you learn about technique and set up.....and that you are waiting on some excellent fresh roasted beans to arrive from Jeff 🙂 In that case just be aware that the fresh beans will undoubtedly have a higher density that supermarket beans (due to staling) so the grind setting that your grinder is now set to, will *probably* be too fine for the new bean supply. All you can do is clear out grinder, leave it where it is set, put the new beans in, and work your magic. The flow of resulting coffee will show you which way to go with the grind setting (probably more coarse, possibly significantly more coarse). Just wait and see. If you have to make a change or changes, dont forget to run *existing* grinds right out so the next coffee you make will indeed reflect the change in grind setting. Hope that helps.

askthecoffeeguy

Out of interest what kind of grinder are you using LMZ? Because this will have a big impact uoon shot quality And I'm a big fan of haudralic tampers for consistent tamping pressure... ACg

lmz

Hi ACg, Grinder is IBERITAL Challenger. Not high end but good value for money and seems to grind fine enough. UNM, I like your thinking and will do the 1/3 pour testing. Thanks FreshCoffee I have noticed the need for grind adjustment with fresh beans.. Regarding dosing I feel that 14g is really not enough to fill up the double basket. I will make some photos and post later on. thanks again. Laurent

Koffee_Kosmo

The weight of grinds that a basket can hold will vary from machine to machine They all have different group dispersion head and PF lock positions and will vary up or down on weight The weight of ground coffee will also vary on the grind you choose e.g - with fine grind you can fit more in the basket and less if you grind course due to larger particle size The method I taught you will be unique and tuned to your machine It applies to any basket you use Having said that you can also replace your basket to an 18 gram double and see how it goes? Almost time to break open that bag of beans I roasted for you Laurent

Brett_H

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

The weight of grinds that a basket can hold will vary from machine to machine They all have different group dispersion head and PF lock positions and will vary up or down on weight The weight of ground coffee will also vary on the grind you choose e.g - with fine grind you can fit more in the basket and less if you grind course due to larger particle size The method I taught you will be unique and tuned to your machine It applies to any basket you use Having said that you can also replace your basket to an 18 gram double and see how it goes? Almost time to break open that bag of beans I roasted for you Laurent

Our KK... As generous as he is clever!! :thumb: The Iberterial Challenge is an excellent grinder! Enjoy the journey LMZ!

lmz

Thanks to KK I have been trying his roast but my shots are still too sour. I have then increased dosage with finer grind and managed to get a bit more sweetness. Dropping the first 2/3 sec of the pour gets most of the bitterness out. Have tried Jeff's roast but I think a bit too early to comment. In my search for better shot I tumbled into this great chart (apology if you guys already know this). http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-good-extractions.html Anyway still trying to get organised for some pics Laurent

C-man

A good read, but does not say, what causes a "Burnt taste" I know it is not the beans.

Koffee_Kosmo

Sour taste is from 1) Beans roasted light and not rested enough 2) Water and or PF is cool at extraction Burnt tasted is from 1) Over roasted beans past the caramelisation point 2) Hot or boiling water at extraction point KK

lmz

Thanks KK your are a gem as usual😉 I will make sure PF is properly warmed after multiple pour. What about strong and too much bitterness (this is what I have been getting)? Also I get lots and lots of yellowish pale thick cream that tends to dissipate quickly... How so I fix... Finer grind/more dose/stronger tamp? It is a journey indeed! Laurent

Koffee_Kosmo

Bitterness and other flavour issues stem from the grind and tamp Too fine a grind - and you may experience woody flavours and can also be called bitter Too course a grind - and all the aromatic oils are not extracted fully So a happy medium grind with appropriate tamp will be the best in most situations KK

C-man

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

Sour taste is from 1) Beans roasted light and not rested enough 2) Water and or PF is cool at extraction Burnt tasted is from 1) Over roasted beans past the caramelisation point 2) Hot or boiling water at extraction point KK

The "burnt taste" was not the beans because OG wound great shots from the same My Cuppa beans so it could only be the temp?

UNM

Finer grind and slightly smaller dose might get a darker, richer crema as it will slow the extraction. Always hard to find the exact balance you want for your machine and palate preference. Perseverance will pay off though.

Ol_Grumpy

Another curious difference... I use around 20-21g shot and the extraction is typically 30 ml +\- with the Rossa. C-man was dosing slightly higher and extracting up to 60ml of gorgeous tiger stripe (no blooding) in the same 25-30 secs with his Rancillo.

Ronin

Hi LMZ Try adding a small amount of hot water to the espresso. Some call it a 'Shlong' or short long. Just takes the edge off the flavour & can be tasty. If you go back to LTD espresso & brew bar you will get a good example. Have you tried beans from cup coffee? Might be a flavour you like too

lmz

AH AH AAAH This morning first shot; I thought to let go the 14g / 25sec rule and go with some comments from Old_Grumpy (20g coffee) and KK's dosage method he told me to do. I filled up the double basket as much as I could, distributed evenly. Firm usual tamp. NAILED IT ! It was the first good shot....finally! I did two more shots (to check if that was not luck); not as good as first pour but definitely drinkable and nice. the following video was very helpful for dosing and espresso pour quality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHhxTiYVyzQ Now practice practice practice and my next step is going to look at roasting equipment and technique! thanks all very much Laurent

C-man

Ol Grumpy wrote:

Another curious difference... I use around 20-21g shot and the extraction is typically 30 ml +\- with the Rossa. C-man was dosing slightly higher and extracting up to 60ml of gorgeous tiger stripe (no blooding) in the same 25-30 secs with his Rancillo.

Yes, I was extracting double the amount you were, may have made a difference if I was stopping the shot shorter, but it just looked so good coming from your bigger burr grinder. I have wound down the P-stat to lower the temp. and no longer have the "burnt taste" but still not as good as yours I was very impressed with the Rossa, it is really a lever quality shot, just using a winder instead of a lever. you should get the gauge, if you could start the shot at 12bar then taper down to 6bar you should have the best shot. this is what I found when I had the dimmer and gauge with my old SB, 12 bar extracts the best flavors but will blond early that is why it needs to drop in the middle of the shot and if you drop pressure even more at the end you will extract more sweet notes. sorry to hi- jack the thread C-

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