Coffee Assosiations

over_extracted

Sorry Emma if i touched a nerve but i love my industry too much. :-*

Unknown

I find it interesting that not much has been said about the achievments of AASCA , Paul Bassett showed the rest of the world what and how Aussie coffee is all about. HMMM

Unknown

Surely we should be looking for an asscociation that is unbiest towards the industry and is there to help and foster the growth of the coffee industry and the people in it. When I see all the sledging that has been going on i wonder why I even bother, but my love ans passion for all things coffee gets the better of me. I have had George Sabbados as my mentor and basically he has been responsible for my growth in coffee sales by something like 300% and has generated and excitement in my cafe where my staff are proud to serve up a coffee and now when they go out they try the coffee at other places and always give feed back on quality service, apperance and taste. George has been one of the few people I have met in the industry who has promoted good coffee with out being biest. As far as his coffee making skills from  what he can still do would put a lot of so called "baristi" to shame. I have seen Emma support aasca as will I. I have found the coffee industry very political and so many closed doors, where if we worked together we would have the best coffee in the world and the best baristi in the world. We are always quick to put someone down but so slow to praise them. I competed in my first competition in Sydney April 2003 in which I learnt about working under the eyes of so many spectators and having judges around you is not as easy as it looks. Even though I thought that theguy that came second in the comp should have won, at the time I mouthed off a bit about Paul Bassett and how I thought he was not worthy (I belive that I am correct still) but this guy went on to win the WBC. Well done Paul. My rating of Paul was not very high until I went to Sydney again for the Aroma Festival and I went to his presintation. This guy capturede my attention for all that time and managed to change my view/outlook on him in that 45min and he didn't know me from a bar of soap. So now I reserve my judgement of people and what they can do for me and other till a bit later on down the track. What IO am trying to get at is it is so hard to find out anything about our industry due to some many closed doors and the narrow mindedness of people and companies. GET OVER IT and get on with the business of COFFEE and help us all grow into better people from it. Regards to all Brian

Supertechnico

I think having been in the coffee industry for many years and having quite a unique practical industry experience, I would throw my opinion into the ring. Regardless of the aasca agenda (which I wonder where the financial benefit is hiding), I have to question the whole Barista label and what the competitions actually achieve. It's nice to own the worlds best coffee maker, but the guy doesn't have to rebuild a Faematronic to prove he makes good coffee. I think any banana can spend time talking to equipment importers and distributors to get technical knowledge, maybe enough to pull the wool over the eyes of  some coffee judge who knows less than he does. Pump pressure, pressure switches, heat exchange, pre-infusion, extraction temperature ooh stop me before I win a coffee making competition. I know from experience that the label placed upon the Barista is entirely unjustified. Having travelled Italy many times I can tell you that the Barista (which is an Italian term) in Italy doesn't just stand behind an espresso machine looking pretty while costing the owner more than the other staff. They will take orders for food alcohol and make a variety of drinks, and know everything about the establishments food and beverages. I'll let you judge the difference. I also question aasca's methods in choosing champion coffee makers and in this question their own experiences . I think that the whole thing is a bit biased. We do make good espresso generally in this country compared to many European countries. Do we need a coffee makers association with coffee maker conventions? The main players in the industry have lifted the bar here, the unfortunate side effect is associations and it's members who suggest they are resposible for a lot more than they really are. Super :-/  

Dean

I'm really amazed that an association was formed (presumably) to represent an industry that I am part of. For me this isn't an issue of how well I'm being represented but more one of why the association thinks they represent me at all. How could I ever endorse an association that was formed to represent me but was never been given a mandate to represent me or anyone else in the industry that I know of. DGC

Dean

It's good to finally establish that there are in fact at least two clearly different groups within the industry - roasters and retailers.  "The Association" represents whom??? Another thing I'd love to know is who represents the other major stakeholder in this industry - the coffee drinkers. Seems like they are the most forgotten group in all of this discussion. All of this banter appears a little self serving to me. When was the last time the coffee drinking public's attention was drawn to the issue of freshness? How long have they (the public) had to listen to the so called coffee establishment speel that if they don't like the thick, heavy, dark and very old muck that was roasted overseas 6- 8 months ago that they really don't like good coffee at all. At appears to me that there is way too much focus on what some people in the industry think that the coffee drinking public wants. Has the association actually ever asked them? Seems to me that the roasters and retailers in Australia that are asking the question are doing the business...and good on them too. Give me a cafe where proprietor has placed the preferences of the demographic of their drinkers ahead of the colour of the supplier's umbrellas when choosing their coffee. Give me a coffee roaster that has listened and responded to their cafe client's needs when designing a blend for them. Give me an association that is actually born out of the industry and exists to represent them and provide a forum for it's members to assert their own influence on international coffee culture and trends. If all this happens and I die (whilst holding great coffee in hand) be assured.....I will Rest in Peace DGC

FreshCoffee2

Which industry are you talking about? I see the   a) Australian cafe industry is being separate to the   b) Australian coffee roasting industry, as being separate to the c) Australian coffee growing industry. I think everyone here has been talking about an association that appears to represent in the main, the cafe industry, with a secondary "rub off" to the other industries mentioned. Unfortunately, the rub off effect has up as well as down sides, as it fosters a lot more roaster competition in an expanding market and while that is good for the cafe industry, it isn't necessarily any good to individuals in the roaster industry, with all and sundry wanting to get in on the act in what is essentially a very small market despite the rapid growth. I can see the possibility of partnerships being developed between the roaster and grower industries (I dont like the way some growers burn their own coffee, and I reckon there may be a few roasters out there that would like to have an interest in a plantation), but I can't see what the cafe/eatery industry has in common with the other two. The wholesale butcher and fruit and veg industries probably have more in common with the cafe industry than the coffee roasting and growing industries do, and I bet the monthly meat and veg accounts are a lot bigger than coffee bean accounts. So who is being directly represented here, and by whom, and for what purpose? Are "specialty" "coffee" associations misnamed? If Kenya AA, Ethiopia Yirgacheffe, New Guinea plantation A grade, Guatemala Antigua, Costa Rica La Lapa or Sumatra Mandhelling for example are already the norm with small coffee roasting companies, what is "specialty"?  What is a specialty coffee roaster? Are these associations "coffee" associations, or "cafe" associations, or "cafe consultant" associations? Fresh Coffee

FreshCoffee2

DGC, RE: your last post: "......When was the last time the coffee drinking public's attention was drawn to the issue of freshness? How long have they (the public) had to listen to the so called coffee establishment speel that if they don't like the thick, heavy, dark and very old muck that was roasted overseas 6- 8 months ago that they really don't like good coffee at all...........Seems to me that the roasters and retailers in Australia that are asking the question are doing the business...and good on them too........." A little off topic, but...I dont think so. If you take a look at the multi coloured breeze barriers strategically positioned on the footpath so as to obstruct the free passage of the good rate payers of our society, I think it could be observed that the evil purveyors of "extremely well matured" stony tasting "antiarabica" coffee have never had it so good! Pretty soon we will be able to rename some of our fair Australian cities with the name of their favourite breeze barrier supplier, because some coffee company colours are now more prevalent than our own national colours! You have simply annunciated the old $64.00 question again...who is telling the general public that something that tastes substandard...is good? When you have answered that, you will have discovered the secret of life, and you will also then have discovered why people persevere after their first cigarette to become seasoned smokers, and why some people like scotch...none of which taste any good until you have forced yourself over time to become hooked on them! Surely no one can argue with that. The main culprit of course, is sugar. It is a well known fact if you tip 8 grams of sugar into a ristretto made from 80% stale robusta, it makes it quite drinkable, and is why sugar portions in Italy are much bigger than ours. Look at the number of dollars being spent on branding campaigns at the moment. Dollars and sugar! When I become president of the republic I am going to sponsor an association that will lobby the banning of all brand advertising, and slap a 75% tariff on all imported roasted coffee. If you want breeze barriers and umbrellas , they will only be allowed to carry the name and logo of the business they will be situated in front of. So it will be "DGC's Awesome Cafe", not "Giuseppe's magnificent Italian roasted coffee and breeze barrier supply". I will also ban sugar and milk. Bring on the revolution. Fresh Coffee.

Dean

Fresh Coffee - You think and write with clarity   Although growers, roasters and cafe's are all involved in coffee it will be helpful in this discussion to consider them as completely different industries. Once this is accepted (in the context of the header subject of coffee associations) it is then easy to understand why there is a prevailing sentiment of negativity towards a single association the purports to represent all three. DGC

KN

I'm not a member of AASCA or any other association, and don't feel it necessary to belong to a coffee association. I am interested, however, in what members of the forum expect from such a body. Those in the coffee industry would be aware of what was recently achieved by members and non-members of AASCA - a national standard for making and serving espresso coffee, and for maintaining and monitoring coffee service. Tourism Training Australia brought together key people from both local roasters and importers to decide on a set of standards for teaching and assessing the making and service of espresso coffee. We are the only country in the world to have standards to teach by and judge quality by, no matter what coffee you use. It is good to see these roasters get past the freshness and bean debate to achieve good. It will only lead to better coffee for all consumers (whether they choose to drink their coffee with or without sugar). KN

Dean

....but did the consumer ever get asked about what they thought was a good espresso? That's my point! Nevermind what the self proclaimed experts think. DGC

FreshCoffee2

KN,     just my honest opinion, but     re "...I am interested.....in what members of the forum expect from such a body"...(i.e. an Association).     The general public doesn't necessarily expect anything...or doesn't necessarily know enough to make an informed judgement...ask instead, what perceived needs do the directors see that their particular associations might service...and to what end?     Re "...a national standard for making and serving espresso coffee, and for maintaining and monitoring coffee service..."     Does the general public know or care? Will they refuse to frequent cafes/eateries that are not "quality assured"? Regulation gone mad? Regulation for the sake of building a training and certification consulting industry? If this is the only country that now has such a system, ask why, in the country of origin (of espresso), they dont appear to require such a specialised system. In the metropolitan areas I occasionally frequent in Italy when visiting trade shows and espresso machine manufacturers on business, high quality coffee beans OR NOT, almost every cafe seems to know how to brew and present wet coffee properly.     As many wise men have already said before, rules regulations (and probably standards) are for the guidence of wise men and adherence of fools. Operating an espresso machine properly is like being a cook...you need to know how to enterpret the rules, not stick to them robotically.     You can teach rules and regs all you like, but you cant oversee what your pupils do with the instruction (and their "certificate") afterwards. That is up to professional cafe ownership and management. Are there any associations helping in this area...Lobbying for training and certification of professional cafe ownership?     I fear the "certification" of "baristas" (there goes my nervous twitch again) according to a "standard" is a glamour excercise that lifts profile but is actually a furphy, taking awareness away from much more deserving areas of interest (like proper regulation of the out of control "cafe" industry).   Are these "coffee", or "roaster", or "grower", or "cafe", or "barista" associations? Coffee roasters do have an obligation to get involved (whether from within "associations" or not) to help lift the standard of coffee brewing...they have a direct interest that their product does not continue to be destroyed by unqualified EMO's (espresso machine operators). Were there any roasters, who were not members of any "coffee" association, involved in the standard developing process? Who judged the suitability of the credentials of all those involved, was it a "coffee" association? Who judged the Judge, and what are the Judge's credentials? These are not questions requiring an answer, just questions designed to make us all think. Fresh Coffee.

Supertechnico

;)Great sentiment FRESH. Let's judge the judges! This espresso coffee revolution here is very young. So who actually has the experience. You can't argue with true hands on dinky di experience I reckon. Everybody seeking advice on coffee should varify (question) their mentors experience, then get sucked in as far as they want to. I don't mind as long as they then don't palm all the info off as their own hard work or experience. I think that happens a bit too much already. Super thoughts those!

KN

Re consumer education. I believe it's ultimately the cafe owner who can have great impact here. Through information displayed in their cafe they can educate the consumer about why their coffee tastes good (of course, it's no use if their product isn't). Coffee suppliers can help them here. Some of these suppliers also run consumer courses, and it's these interested consumers who will start rejecting bad coffee and demanding why their espresso or cappuccino is weak and tasteless. There are answers to your questions. The judge of the judges was Tourism Training Australia, as I mentioned in my post. Those involved were representatives (trainers, roasters) of the coffee industry. Not all belong to coffee associations. I agree that this doesn't directly impact consumers, but if the coffee industry can agree on what makes a good coffee and how one should be made, there will be benefits for the person paying $2.50 - $3.00 for one. Gotta go.. KN

admin

Hi guys - because of the continuing interest in this topic, will ask Emily Oak from AASCA to briefly outline their aims and objectives... Admin

FreshCoffee2

Many serious business people are well occupied running their businesses and may not necessarily be situated in major centres where you might expect the greatest dissemination of information to be? So unless they are directly canvassed by all and sundry, they may not know who some of these people or organisations are. In fact, I wonder whether this topic might originally have been better placed in the Trade Section. So for the benefit of all who are watching this, What is Tourism Training Australia? Who is Emily Oak? Fresh Coffee

FreshCoffee2

Dear Admin, I have undertaken an exhaustive audit of the size and number of "stars" situated under contributor names, concluding you are unfairly allocated the largest and greatest number of stars despite the number of your contributions to the Forum being less than others. This is grossly unfair! Bring on the stars please. Fresh Coffee

admin

Dear Fresh Coffee - all I can say is, you're absolutely right; just another example of how unfair life is :> Have been thinking for some time that this thread would be better placed in 'Trade'... Admin

KN

Re Tourism Training Australia Website: www.tourismtraining.com.au I can send you a copy of the standards if you are interested. KN

Unknown

Hello everyone, I hope to answer any questions regarding AASCA. I am currently the elected Secretary of the Australasian Specialty Coffee Association. This Industry body, with over 100 members from all over Australia was formed in 2001 with the aim of organised activites which further the quality and communication of the Australian coffee industry. Basically, the AASCA and its activites are directed by the members. Like any industry association, we are goverened by rules and regulations set by the Australian government which includes regular financial audits and public minutes. AASCA was not formed to represent consumers, more any individual or company who wants to further their education, understanding or connections within the industry in Australia or overseas. In the last 2 years the association, which is administered by a group of volunteers has achieved a number of things which were highly appreciated by members and non members alike. These included assisting Paul Bassett to attend the World Barista Championship in Boston in April 2003. He was elected to go there by a group of judges from outside of AASCA, over 30 individuals from the coffee industry across Australia, a list of which is always available to anyone who would like and a list which I believe is not one that can be critisised for experience. It is something that we will do again next year, with no intention other than sending the best representative we can from Australia to compete against the other 35 countries participating in this event. Regardless of whether or not you feel that you need an association to represent you, AASCA exists and is open to anyone who wishes to be a member. Without trying to advertise or push the association, there is a website available or if you have any other questions you are more than welcome to contact me directly via email as listed above. Thanks for your time, keep loving coffee! Emily

john

Maybe we need to go back to basics and review the definition!!!!! ;D ;D ;D I looked up my Concise Oxford and had trouble finding the term AssoSiations.   However I found the term AssoCiation being: 1. an organisation of people with a common purpose and having a formal structure 2.a group of people organised for come common purpose 8) 8) 8)

Dean

Is is conceivable that another coffee related association may emerge. AASCA is one group that has over 100 members. There must be well over 10 000 people immediately associated with coffee in Australia. Why haven't they joined AASCA? Hmmmm - food for thought...or not? DGC

Dean

Dear Fresh Coffee I did my own quick examination of the situation - saw my star status, compared it with yours and realised I had a lot further to go in order to attain your guru status. I'm not sure that anyone will ever aspire to the deity status of our administrator. How many espresso's does one have to drink to move to such lofty heights? DGC

Unknown

IT SEEMS LIKE YOU SPEND TOO MUCH TIME DREAMING ABOUT STARS AND NOT REALLY PUTTING ANYTHING BACK INTO THE INDUSTRY WITHOUT SOME FINANCIAL REWARD TO YOURSELF. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID.... MAKE COMMENTS BUT SIT ON YOUR HANDS AND WATCH OTHER PEOPLE MOVE THE PILE OF BEANS AND THEN CLAIM YOU ARE PART OF THE MOVEMENT AND WANT SOME STARS. THE PROBLEM IS THAT TOO MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY DESERVE TO BE STARS WITHOUT REALLY HELPING THE INDUSTRY.

lars

Starseeker - not quite sure what your point is, but i'm pretty sure the 'star' thing was a joke... L

FreshCoffee2

---

Some thoughts on legitimate posts... a) Lars, I think you have a point; b) Starseeker, anonymous poster in public forum....naughty naughty, notwithstanding however...from the goings on in this site you cant really tell who is putting what back into the industry with or without financial reward.... "Movement"...that's an interesting term, and I dont understand it in the context of these dicussions. What movement? Coffee beans is coffee beans, cafe's is cafe's. There is nothing special about coffee (gasp, horror) other than it is an aquired taste, and a nice drink to have as and when you feel like it, and if you are going to pay for it, then it should be excellently made and presented. That's all, nothing more. Use of the term "movement" to me, suggests much that is wrong with the "industry" at the moment...too many people, trying to make much much more than is necessary, out of a relatively simple part of life. In short, an "industry" filling to the brim with self importance, taking itself too seriously. What's with the snob value that is overtaking coffee? No? c) DGC, awh shucks, you make me blush but thanks for the thought! Re your serious question "...How many espresso's does one have to drink to move to such lofty heights?..." Actually, from within my own industry (roasting) you quickly learn that to drink volumes of coffee is a no no, we all know the medical signs of ingesting too much caffeine. So the idea, as within all walks of life, is everything in moderation. Less is more, especially if you make it good. Fresh Coffee.

FreshCoffee2

Oh, and my apologies to our esteemed Administrator for my last post as it went off topic...AssoSiations weren't mentioned. Fresh Coffee

Dean

Dear Star Seeker Has the direction of this thread struck a bit of a nerve? Some bold assumptions are being made here about how you think some of us are benefiting from the industry. Your use of the term "Movement" paints a pretty gloomy picture of how how you view the future of the coffee industry. History tells us that many "movements" ultimately end up with a tyrant dictator who's only ambition is to rule the world. More power to the simple people who just like drinking good fresh coffee. ...And I assume that's also what AASCA wants... everyone striving to achieve great coffee for the coffee consumer. The problem as I see it is that there is no genuine attempt by AASCA to define the sectors within the industry and no recognition at all that a single representative group (or movement) for all the different sectors is probably inappropriate. To Fresh Coffee: My intake goes a little like this Get out of bed - a double with a dash Get to work - a double pulled short. Sometime later - a double pulled short. Everything in moderation DGC

john

This topic has been out of the limelight for some time. AASCA has an AGM and SGM on this Friday for those interested. ??? ??? ??? JD 8)

admin

'Revived' topic -Admin