Londinium I Lever Espresso Machine

Lacehim

on 1342515090:

Looks like a nice small foot print.  I wonder how they'll be blinging it up?

From the blog is seems they are avoiding the shiny stainless steel box route.  Personally I think a perspex shell would be nice, especially after hearing about the copper boiler!  But I think it will be a painted shell, which to be honest I prefer. The group is a commerical group, so yep, it's big.  It's looks very compact. Hatchy, they are aiming for 1500 pounds.  If they stick to that I'm hoping to have one in my kitchen by Christmas!  This machine is shaping up to be the machine for me.  Ticking all the boxes!!!!

Wonder

Damn, I was really keen on one of these.. Ticked all my boxes as well, but a beautifully restored Faema Lambro came up at a price too good to refuse.. I wonder what the shipping will be from England, because if they can keep it at

Wonder

on 1342525942:

Only time will tell and as you have found out... A bird in the hand is still better than one in development  :thumb:

Very true.... TDF

Lacehim

on 1342525204:

Damn, I was really keen on one of these.. Ticked all my boxes as well, but a beautifully restored Faema Lambro came up at a price too good to refuse.. I wonder what the shipping will be from England, because if they can keep it at

Wonder

Ill post pics of mine, if you post pics of your when we both have them..  :thumb:

Lacehim

Hot off the press

The dimensions of Londinium I are approximately; 500mm deep, 375mm wide and 300mm high, plus the height of the lever.  The depth may change, but this is what it measures today

Also they are using toggle/joystick controls on the hot water/steam.  I hope they can flick on, and stay on or that would be a pain in the arse. AM, if your reading are you up for making some custom handles, and toggles for me?

Koffee_Kosmo

The dimensions of Londinium I are approximately; 500mm deep, 375mm wide and 300mm high, plus the height of the lever.  The depth may change, but this is what it measures today

on 1342569588:

Hot off the press Also they are using toggle/joystick controls on the hot water/steam.  I hope they can flick on, and stay on or that would be a pain in the arse.

Not much different than the Strega is dinentions @ ; W 330 D 450 H 400 & 710 with handle They may copy the toggle on the Strega as it has a lock "ON" in the up Possition and manual hold elsewhere KK

derrilex

on 1342574257:

Mind you; quality timber is  required as I am over trying to use left overs and other stuff.  Kiln dried and turning blanks are the best.

Pussy  :rofl:

Seeya Latte

My previous life as a PI has finally come in handy..... I reckon that just by looking at the photo, seems like it was taken at a workshop with what looks like Fracino machines in the background and the drip tray and switches (and dimensions reorted) on the prototype look like they've been lifted / modelled off the Fracino Cherub machine...makes sense Fracino are UK based machines Columbo out

Paolo5

You could be spot-on with your legwork, Seeya Latte. Both the Fracino Heavenly and Cherub models also have a 2.3 litre boiler and an element rating (in England) of 2850 watts. Either of these models could be the platform upon which the Londinium 1 is being based.

conikal

..and they mention trips to Birmingham to check the prototype build.   Fracino are in Birmingham . 

UNM

Makes perfect sense. The Londinium, made in Birmingham. :thumb:

Lacehim

There has been a lot of info on their blog about the machine.  I've been keeping up to date with it. A few changes have been made, the pump will basically operate like the Strega, running as every shot is pulled, for a few secs to fill the boiler.  The reasoning was to make it more temperature stable, so lots of little fills of water, rather than one big fill of water.  They haven't mentioned what pump then are using yet. A few things mentioned lately about the machine are: No sight glass, it will have water level sensors instead. No ballast to keep the machine stable while pulling the lever down.  Does the Strega have this? Dry weight of the machine is probably going to come close to 35Kg  ??? Sirai pressure stat has been spec'd They are using hardwood grips for the handles They will have a model with glass side panels and clear coat boiler & pipework.  Nice! They are supplying a combination carbon water filter & ion exchange water softener in the tank so we don't have to use Volvic bottle water in it.  :rofl:  Sorry still get a laugh at this everytime.  The water must be really bad in London! Forged chromed brass portafilter holders A kit will be made available for plumbing Londinium I into a mains water supply (Please note that this kit does not bypass or eliminate the water pump) Also earlier on they mentioned in the blog that they designed the top so that you can't put cups on it to warm them up.  Not sure about their reasoning, but they suggest the it warms up quick, and that people will just turn on, and use, and turn off.  But then later start talking about temperature stable groups.  :doh:  Seems a bit inconsistant.  Anyway, I like having my cups up on the top warming up. So, really for me it's a toss up between the Strega, or the Londinium I. Mmmmm. So there you go.  I'm still considering one,  but a few of the decisions they have made have put me off a bit.  Still a good call on the glass side panels and clear coat boiler & pipework model.  That would look seriously trick.  I always thought after all the work borat did on his machine that it the internals deserved to be shown off!

Brett H

The pump is disappointing.  I'll stick with my Junior Extra PID and use the Pavoni for lever fun.  In light of this If i was in the market I'd go for the Strega: tried, tested available now....that is, if I didn't already own the most awesome machine in the universe  :P

conikal

on 1346326164:

The pump is disappointing. 

Sounds just like the debate over the Strega in its early days ! No reason why the same "pump bypass" ..as some did on the Strega...could not be done if desired ?

Koffee_Kosmo

Don't forget that the Strega already does come in 3 combinations, Factory built So if one desires a silent version then the no pump plumed in version is available Having said that I actually have greater control with the pump KK

lespresso

hi i've joined this forum to answer any questions you may have about the Londinium I lever espresso machine kind regards reiss. londinium espresso

Hatchy

on 1346366112:

hi i've joined this forum to answer any questions you may have about the Londinium I lever espresso machine kind regards reiss. londinium espresso

Welcome Reiss. Glad you found this forum. Could you post up a run down on the specs and estimated price (including delivery to Oz)?

lespresso

hi GBP1500 incl 20% VAT, which will not be charged for exports outside the EU you are looking at about GBP200 for FEDEX door to door to Australia, which depending on how Aussie customs feel, should reach you in about a week.  its a fully tracked service anyway, so you can see exactly how far away it is spec 2.3L copper boiler 2800W or 2400W for NZ/AUS if preferred so it runs on 10A, but id recommend the full fat 2800W experience if you can big 'ol spring group with thermosiphon vibe pump (i know, i know, but the guys making it assure me they have used it in their other machines for years and it is very reliable) looking at about 550mm(d) x 320(w) x 320 (h) GBP1500 is for the base model with stainless sides and black synthetic handles there will also be a more expensive version with glass side panels & polished copper boiler & pipes that has then been clear coated so it won't tarnish & that's about it think reiss.

conikal

on 1346366112:

hi i've joined this forum to answer any questions you may have about the Londinium I lever espresso machine kind regards reiss. londinium espresso

  Thanks for taking the time to join the forum Reiss,   so, its September tomorrow... when can we expect to see the finished article ? Were we correct in suggesting that Fracino may build the "production" machine for you ( excellent choice if correct ). Any comments on the pro's /con's  of a "pumpless" version ? Do you plan on having an agent /distributor in Oz, .....so we colonials can get a close look ? Thanks again for developing a fine m/c.

lespresso

ah yes, the old Sept 1 question im afraid we will be rowing hard to get it to market in late Sept to be honest, but we'll have a better idea soon yes, i don't think I'm ashamed to tell you that Fracino have done the engineering design, calcs, and indeed production I'm very grateful to fracino for the opportunity, and having been through their facility a few times i have no hesitation in suggesting you take a look at their products, for e.g., one of their pump machines if levers aren't your thing - they are all underpinned with sound engineering, a high build quality, and represent exceptional value for money the plumb in kit will go 'above' the pump - the reason for this is simple - we are selling this machine globally.  it is a real headache if we sell a plumbed in machine to someone who has low water pressure and we have to resolve the issue over the phone, or worse email/chat, and possibly without a common first language to converse in if people chose to strip the pump out, well we can't stop them, but it is no longer a standard machine in terms of after sales support.  that isn't to say it invalidates the warranty as a whole, but certainly in relation to issues that might arise as a result of doing that, i.e. boiler not filling. agent in oz - not in the 1st 12 months i don't think, but beyond that who knows.  if we had the sales volume to justify shipping numbers by sea freight on a pallet then the unit freight cost really drops, but I've looked at the cost of moving a lump of this weight & dimension internally in Australia, e.g. Perth to Brisbane & the savings get eroded pretty quickly, especially when you factor in the increase cost of devanning and then repacking into individual consignments - someone has to be paid to undertake this activity there is also the increase in risk of damage and the difficulty in determining where the damage occurred if we put it on fedex in london and they collect from our door and deliver to yours inside a week and its damaged on arrival its pretty clear cut - Fedex pays.  if it gets to you in multiple hops with multiple carriers it can become less clear. remember, I'm a colonial too.

Lacehim

on 1346326164:

The pump is disappointing.

Any machine with a tank rather than being plumbed in would have a pump anyway.  The noise of the pump is my concern, especially having had a few pump machines with a ULKA thumping away in the backgroud, and now having a slient lever.  Still, the benefits of having a tank are a bonus!

on 1346366112:

i've joined this forum to answer any questions you may have about the Londinium I lever espresso machine

Great to see you here Reiss.  There has been lots of interest in your lever here.  The communication on your blog, and by email has been fantastic about this project.  I'm really looking forward to seeing the end product, and hopefully buying one.  I hope you put up a few videos so that we can see it in action! Ooooo, I see I got a mention on your blog.  http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog I feel like I've been put in the naughty corner now!  :rofl: Didn't mean to stir the pot, and your response was great.  I'm home all day, so my machine is usually on, so at least I have the option of both!   I don't store my entire collection of cups on my machine, just 1 or 2.  Also I'm glad you explained the different ways the pump is being used, it seems the Londinium I & Strega are poles apart.

on 1346372450:

there will also be a more expensive version with glass side panels & polished copper boiler & pipes that has then

I can just imagine this with a light inside the case!  It would be like going back to my case modding days!  ;D Reiss, what sort of finish will the case of the machine have?  Initially you mention it not being another stainless steel box.  Has the changed now that you can get laser work done straight onto the stainless? It's certainly shaping up to be a fantastic machine... and maybe my ultimate lever purchase.  I don't think we've every had this level of information from a manufacturer before about a machine as it's being developed, without any smoke and mirrors (take note Breville).  It's nice to see it evolving, and the final customers of this machine feel apart of the process too.  Sweet!

lespresso

hi lacehim curiously you didn't have a meltdown like the sheriff did here; http://www.home-barista.com/levers/new-domestic-lever-espressso-machine-with-commercial-group-t22480-70.html ah well, he'll recover  :stir desperately trying to avoid having to put a light inside the casing - i think it looks a bit cheap (blue led is a pet hate of mine, for example), but lets see - i have a strong preference just for ambient light the base model is a stainless box with black plastic handles to keep the machine within reach of as many people as possible the premium model is a box, but not a plain stainless one - i think it will look ok with clear glass side panels and solid teak grips and clear coat oven baked enamel to keep the boiler and copper pipes untarnished.  the whole idea is to put our money where our month is and show that the internal fit and finish is superior to the alternatives in truth i don't think it is a non-descript euro 'box' in the way the Bosco, Quickmill Achille and others are - it has a unique low, wide, deep profile that i haven't seen on any other machine which i really like as it makes the machine look a lot smaller than it is which will greatly reduce the odds of your significant other vetoing your prospective purchase

conikal

on 1346375255:

the plumb in kit will go 'above' the pump - the reason for this is simple - we are selling this machine globally.  it is a real headache if we sell a plumbed in machine to someone who has low water pressure and we have to resolve the issue over the phone, or worse email/chat, and possibly without a common first language to converse in if people chose to strip the pump out, well we can't stop them, but it is no longer a standard machine in terms of after sales support.  that isn't to say it invalidates the warranty as a whole, but certainly in relation to issues that might arise as a result of doing that, i.e. boiler not filling.

I understand  & respect your position on this and would only ask if you have used a "normal " 15bar vibe pump, or maybe  selected a lower pressure unit to help minimize noise ? ...( as you only need enough pressure to fill the boiler )

lespresso

Off the top of my head the vibe pump we are using can push up to almost 30bar, but it is adjustable and we have it running at a fraction of that That said, I understand a key factor that determines how quiet a pump runs are the mountings.  Again we didn't develop this from a clean sheet and hope that it works, but rather we are using components that Fracino have used in their other products for years and so are able to say with confidence that they are up to the job

Paolo5

Hi Reiss, Welcome to the forum. I have read all that I have been able to locate about the Londinium 1 and have to say that it sounds like a winner as far as I am concerned. I saw my tax agent this afternoon and will have the readies in 10 days from now....I NEED one!

Brett H

Welcome Reiss!  How fantastic that you've taken the time to visit us here at Crema.  Your contribution is much appreciated mate!  I can't wait to see pics of the finished product, and who knows... Sounds as if they'll be a few o play with here in OZ!  :thumb:

Seeya Latte

Hi Reiss As others have mentioned already 'welcome' and well done  for pursuing what probably started out as just a crazy idea fuelled by the same passion we all have on these forums and maybe even a few beers...(well that's where mine have all started...but strangely stopped too). Also well done for being very open on your blog and on forums during your product's development phase, it has definitely aroused interest and some degree of  heat but all judgements aside, at the very least it has given me and other general punters a better insight into what goes on before a product hits the shelves. Good luck with it

lespresso

ah well, i just think people should declare their vested interests, direct or indirect; in the member profile it should be compulsory.  don't present your views as impartial if they are not, especially if you are in a position of influence. i was annoyed the product was being compared with the Strega, that doesn't mean I have it in for the Strega, I just think our product is going to be of a significantly higher quality, which leads nicely into the question raised here about what initiated the project sheer frustration with our existing product offering in terms of our repeated inability to give our customers the experience we think is reasonable when you are spending that kind of money if a product isn't 'right first time' when it is being shipped around the globe the cost to us, and we do stand behind the products we sell, of making good the defect is huge - i.e. it can often wipe out all the profit so we might as well not have bothered making the sale you put up with this for a few years and lobby for change.  if none is forthcoming you have to take control of your own destiny i think.  some people will think a decent espresso machine can't be made outside italy, or europe at worst, but then there are guys in the States like Slayer, Synesso, etc, who are world class, so we're def up for the fight if that's what it takes that's the driver for this project; to improve the customer experience, not some airy-fairy stuff don't think I'm arrogantly suggesting we'll never have defects.  what I'm striving for is a defect rate of 1%.  on some of our products it is 50%, which is unsustainable, and the only reason the customer doesn't experience it is because we have to take some of the machines we sell apart, fix, test, dry, repack, etc that's not a business, a least not a sustainable one, that's some kind of charity where we are the bulwark between the manufacturer (no problem, no problem, nothing to return to us) and the customer (get it right first time or we won't come back) if you are familiar with some of the products we sell, i doubt that they are any better or worse than the average for the espresso machine industry - i.e. its pretty poor across the board in my experience, even the so called 'stellar' brands of espresso machine. but we're not putting up with it any longer, hence me getting hot under the collar when comparisons were made with machines we have considered becoming resellers for in some detail and dismissed the idea on quality control grounds.  i don't think that's rude, impertinent, ill-advised, deplorable, or disgraceful behaviour. i made the comments on our blog no where else, and I'm sorry but i don't maintain a blog to post pictures of latte art & serviettes.  we'll write what we think gives you an insight into what we are up to so you can feel as though you are in the factory with us. people who want to maintain control over forums as to what the 'best' machines are and who the 'best' roasters are, etc will get their feathers ruffled, we're not too worried about that - we're nobody's stooge because we haven't worked our way up through the industry selling someone else's machine/roasting someone else's coffee/etc - you get the idea. indeed the notion that we could be a threat to anyone is pretty funny - we're not exactly Illy or Lavazza in size. reiss. [attachimg=1] after i posted this i remembered a part i threw in the bin earlier this afternoon, which i fished out and took an image of for you (above).  i think we all know what this comes off, so no names will be mentioned to protect the guilty, but the point still stands - we are bearing the cost of this.  this i found amoungst our stock of bases that we ordered some time ago.  it isn't saleable - i can't wrap this up and send this to you in good faith, sure its only cosmetic as our manufacturing friends tell us and it will do the job just as well as one without tooling scars on it, but i don't think it is saleable.  it certainly not worth sending it back to italy to prove the point.  so once again, we put it in the bin & take the hit. there will be those of you thinking that airing this in a public forum is unprofessional, and i mightn't disagree with you, but we have really tried with all these guys - its like banging your head against a stone wall, especially for the low value stuff like this which a lot of it is - dings, scraps, scratches. so if you want to know what inspired the Londinium I, the image above is the answer.  its time for change. before you think I'm a snotty nosed pen pusher who has never actually made anything, for the record i worked evenings in a machine shop running CNC lathes & machining centres when i went to university, so i am fully aware of the reasons and causes of each & everyone of these machining defects. for example, the defects in the image above will be from running the carbide cutting tip on the tool beyond its useful life for the job, combined with running at too high a feed rate on the tool so it isn't cutting cleanly, but ploughing up the machine face.  Unacceptable, but more of an issue on a hard material like steel, but on aluminium???? give me a break - its as soft as butter - they're just wringing every last penny out of the carbide tips to squeak a bit more profit. it unacceptable, unnecessary and totally out of place on high value 'cosmetic' machining, which is what externally visible espresso machine components are. Poor, and we've had a gutsful of underwriting the cost of it (throwing away defective components), so please don't tell me the L1 is just like a Strega (this part isn't off a Strega, just to be clear, but the point still stands across the board from all the espresso machines I've looked at) reiss.

SniffCoffee

Reiss Great to have you here and great to be watching the development of the Londinium.  Perfect timing too in terms of the development of the HG One at the same time making a great combination. I'd already made up my mind to get a HG One and thought it would pair nicely with my Cremina, but the Londinium may mean the end of my affair with the Cremina too! Sniff