ECM Giotto is now in my kitchen

Remus

Well it happened, i bought the ECM. my wife was the main ingredient, she saw the look of it in pics and pretty much made the call then and there. then when she saw it in real life, well...it was love at first sight.

pretty sure i got a good deal. $2650 for the giotto premium, ss tamp, 1kg of beans, rancilio rocky grinder matched in store with machine, 2 capp cups/saucers, 2 espresso cups/saucers, tub of cleaning powder, 1L ss jug, tour of machine and cleaning tips. some people may have paid a bit less or know of a better deal but i couldn;t really be bothered hunting all over syndey to save maybe $50 odd dollars. woulda cost me more in fuel and frustration.

i intend to play most of the rest of the weekend and will give you a report back later. gotta say thanks to FC in particualr. great bloke, heaps of help and very friendly.

attilio, thank you again.  8)

pab

well done... we'll have to start a Giotto owners club!! I've had my baby for just over a year now so I can tell you that you'll enjoy this machine for a long time!!!

john

Pab You forgot to sign the formal 'adoption' papers. I was wondering when you might return the baby???? JD

Remus

well done... we'll have to start a Giotto owners club!! I've had my baby for just over a year now so I can tell you that you'll enjoy this machine for a long time!!!

thanx pab. would be interested to hear your techniques and tips etc since you've had much more play time. i've gone thru a load of beans so far and was getting frustrated as hell with the flavour of espresso. always seemed to have a slight bitter taste. adjusted the grinding, adjusted the tamp. tried everything i could think of and couldn;t get it right. then my wife gives me a revelation..."maybe it's the coffee." dahhhh, one thing i didn;t try, actually using a different blend. i found some illy beans in the pantry. cracked em open and whacked em in the grinder. dose, tamp, whack it in...syrupy blackness followed by tiger stripe. a good 20 odd seconds b4 i hit blonding. held my breath, smell...sip...not even the remotest hint of bitterness. phew. i made anther 5-6 shots just to be sure it wasn;t a fluke. all perfect. i gotta tell ya, the relief !! lol then i got back to thinking. SURELY no blend of coffee should be THAT bitter ? should it ? maybe illy beans are milder and more tolerant. so i ground again and whacked it thru the pavoni which i know backwards. black, syrupy, stripes, 25s extraction, great crema...taste...BITTER. >:( so whats the verdict ? am i stuffing it up ? bad batch of beans ? should any blend be bitter smelling/ tasting which i normally associate with burning. what do you think?

JM

Hi, As a Giotto owner for 3+ years, my deal is to buy only enough beans for the week (House Roast from Bay Coffee in NBay) and grind each shot to order via Isomac - although might change that for a Mazer.  Anyway, is's always sweet, never bitter, and great crema.  I'd say it's GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). How old are your beans? When were they roasted?

Remus

thanx JM. beans were freshly packed. they smell fine too. perhaps its a bad batch though. as i said, illy coffee came out fine even with all sorts of extraction times. i'm sure i haven;t got this right though. either my tamping or grind is off. btw: just glancing at the pressure gauage here and it NEVER goes over 1. i thought it should be just over ? it's normally a fraction under or spot on 1. does this tell me anything or is that just alot of baloney BTW: the rocky grinder is perhaps only a fraction better than the old gaggia one. have run both back to back with same weight dosing and as close to similar grind as possible and the espresso result was barely perceptable. not sure a grinder was all that necessary after all.

JM

Quick question, while your beans were fresh packed and smelt good - when were they roasted? Over a week is too old in my opinion.  Green beans (unroasted) keep for a few months I think, but once roasted = a week or so, and ground = not long at all (i.e. use as soon as possible after being ground). Having said that, you might have got a dud batch. Do you live near Neutral bay? Well worth trying Bay Roasts house blend as it never fails our Giotto.  The grind does matter too - don't make it too fine or ot could make it too hard for the water to get through - and therefore burn the coffee (bitter). How long does your extraction take? There's a clue in that - if too short grind is too course, if too long grind may be too fine. The main variable in your case is grind quality (after bean quality/freshness) as I can vouch for the Giotto. Re-pressure, I'd need to check on mine - seldom look at the gauge as it stays on all day - but I think it's over 1.   Also with tamper, firm but not over hard as again that packs it too tight and the slow extraction that follows will risk burning the coffee

Remus

thanx for that help !! good point about the fine grind/ hard tamp. i never for a minute thought that it was the machine. lol it's obviously ME.  :P just a matter of getting familira with what works and what doesn;t. trying to just shorten that learning curve. lol with my old machine there are no measurments and everything is second nature. i guess i'm so used to making a great coffee every time, the adjustment period is frustarting me. you leave it on all day did you say ? is it plumbed in ? doesn;t it run out of water or overheat ? i live in cronulla btw. tell you the truth i donlt mind illy at all, i love the mild taste, it's just too damn expensive. gotta find a good place for beans.

pab

Hey Remus, I've found over tamping with the Giotto leads to long over extracted burnt/bitter brew... Also, if you've pulled a nice shot in the right time and it tatses bitter, I'd saay it's te beans. As for good beans - we tried some Nonno's Espresso blend that we brought at Aroma. In our opinion, a very nice blend. They're based in Bankstown Square (I think). Good luck!!!

Remus

thanx pab. does anyone with a giotto have a rocky grinder ? if so what setting are you at ? i ditched those beans. they must have been bad. back to illy now and playing with that. i was originally using a 13 setting on the grinder with a heavy tamp. have now backed down to a 10 setting, (finer), and eased off on the tamp. still not perfect though. silly thing is i can get the old pavoni hitting perfect shots here on anything from a 10-13 setting on the grinder just by adjusting the tamp. i guess with the giotto you need to be much more precise. btw: am double dosing every shot. a single shot is not strong enuf for me. maybe i should start with getting a single right. think i may go and buy some scales/ timer and really measure out the dose/ pour properly. ahhh...the joys of getting it right huh ?  ;D

JM

Hi, >you leave it on all day did you say ? is it plumbed in ? doesn;t it run out of water or overheat ?

Remus

interesting review. i recall reading it during my research b4 i bought the machine. 8) brings me back to my pressure question though. mine has NEVER hit 1.2 bars. the most i get is 1 bar. even on the weekend pulling shots like crazy trying to get the espresso right, it never went over 1. in fact it hovers between 0.8 and 1. (no steaming at all). wonder if this may be part of the problem, (yes i know i'm trying to blame the machine for my inadequacy. :P). to be honest though i don;t even really know what this reading means...or rather, how it effects the coffee ? ??? anyone care to explain. leaving it on all day to keep temp stability is something i'd like to do, but don;t these things evaporate a fair bit of water even on "standby". i understand this isn;t a problem for you cos its plumbed in your case and i undrestand it has a cut out, but i don;t wanna be filling the thing constantly. i guess i should just try and see. gripes for me ? the waste resovoir is tiny and you have to tilt it up towards the back of the machine to get it out which further reduces the capacity. i think this is a really poorly designed feature. obviously, plumbing is the answer here. the coffee beans is obviously an issue. BUT, i reiterate that i'm using the same beans, dose, grind, tamp pressure in my old pavoni with much better results so far. as for the grinder, its a brand spankin new racilio rocky. this really should be good enuf to get what i need. i guess it gets back down to the 3 "p's"...practice, practice, pray. ;D

mattyj

Remus, you mentioned you live in Cronulla? I grew up around there! Living in the good-coffee-desert (ie - good coffee is non-existent) of Epping now, though I do get back there to visit the family a fair bit. Have you been to Kafenio and Grind? Both are excellent cafe's, and the bairsta's there are great guys to get to know. They're very knowledgeable about coffee, and they love to chat to people who are passionate about it! I've learnt heaps from both of them, and you can too, just by picking a quiet time to order a coffee, mention that you are into espresso, you've got a setup at home ... all that. I'd back the comments above - FRESH COFFEE kicks backside over illy. I think I used illy for a few days back when I started out (two years ago) and I was just never happy. It was good for plunger and drip, but no good for espresso. That, and grinding only what you're about to use - my tip is to 'updose', so for a double shot (use the single basket as a tamp rest, so you don't scratch up the surface of your nice heavy s/s tamp) you'd be using more like 18-20g, rather than the 'standard' 14g. It may wreak havock with your shower screens and gaskets, but they're replaceable and fairly cheap. If ya ever want to catch up at kafenio one day, email me! I'm always up for chatting about coffee! EDIT: oh yeah, I've been using a mazzer mini for a month or two now - this grinder rocks! Sure, I'm only using it with a sunbeam (the HX expobar arrived in Aus today ... should be here by the end of the week!), but it's made such a massive improvement over my old de longhi. That said, the rocky gets a huge rap from many users - it seems like a competent grinder. I'd find the stepped adjustments frustrating though. And, Kafenio sell their coffee to the public, in bags with one-way valves - it's rested for two weeks, and has a small amount of robusta to produce body and crema. It's not my favourite blend, I love my home roast and the occasional trip to danes for some of their goodies. That said, Kafenio make their coffee very well, and I think the blend really suits the lots-of-milk-and-sugar crowd in cronulla.

Remus

you LEFT the shire ??? :o :o :-X my outlaws are in west ryde, so i know epping pretty well. lol would be great to catch up for a coffee mate. i generally don;t go out much for coffee so i'm not up with the "scene" but what your saying makes total sense speaking to baristas. what i'd really like to do is probably do some training and preferably spend some time with someone that has the same machine. RE: fresh coffee. as i said in my post above. i agree with you. i wouldn;t be so adamant about the illy if i wasn;t getting better results with the same coffee from my old machine. i don;t think the coffee is the problem here. it's more me. :D

mattyj

just made an edit, just then! and so did you! yeah i left the shire for a REALLY good job! I'm getting an expobar this week - which has similar intrenals to the giotto (big boiler, heat exchange etc etc), so I'd love to help you out!

Remus

SUGAR ?!?!? do people still DO that in coffee ?? i may try kafenio and greab me some good beans. would be great to hook up regardless.  8)

mattyj

just made an edit, just then! and so did you! yeah i left the shire for a REALLY good job! I'm getting an expobar this week - which has similar intrenals to the giotto (big boiler, heat exchange etc etc), so I'd love to help you out!

JM

>mine has NEVER hit 1.2 bars. the most i get is 1 bar. even on the weekend pulling shots like crazy trying to get the espresso right, it never went over 1. in fact it hovers between 0.8 and 1. (no steaming at all). Yes it could be part of your problem. The water temp and pressure absolutely matter, mine has been "set and forget" but I know it's always over 1.

FreshCoffee2

Chris. Discuss with your vendor. He might tell you you are dreaming...and he might not...and he might produce a couple of different fresh roasts for you to try. If you are getting a better coffee out of a can of unnecessarily expensive and well marketed stale imported beans, than out of a freshly roasted and most probably better grade of coffee bought locally, then I am afraid it cant be more than the understanding of the new equipment and the relationship to the grinder, adjustments and techniques thereof. It doesnt come instantly. Time to take a lesson methinks. Regardz, FC.

mattyj

Another thought I had ... I've been doing a lot of research into HX machines, because as I've mentioned, one is arriving at my place this week. It seems that when HX machines sit idle, the water in the Hx gets too hot/super heated, and you need to run a cooling flush before pulling a shot. Apparently when the water is too hot, it burns the coffee, giving out a bitter flavour. http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html This link is to an article on heat exchange machines, and how to get the best out of them. I found it really helpful, and hopefully having studied it will have paid off by the end of the week!

Remus

DONE IT !!  ;D i rang ecm in sydney and spoke to charles there who was FANTASTIC. couldn;t be more helpful. i was actually quite shocked out how much time, help and advice he was prepared to give, chuck FC into the mix here and you coffee retaliers are a blo*dy friendly bunch !! i whipped out the electonic scales and got my dosing right, (consistent), got the bathroom scales out and got my tamp pressure down. once i took those two variables out and got em pretty much right, i just made multiple cups with every grind from 10-14 on the grinder and just by process of elimination found the sweet spot. DAYUM it feels good !! 8) gotta work on that consistency now. dosing str8 from a grinder is new to me so i need to get that down without scales. what was i doing wrong ? basically underdosing and overtamping. now i get a great pour, great crema and a great heartstarter. thanx to everyone that helped.

JM

Good work You can learn more at www.home-barista.com too

Remus

yeah thats a great site. i really like it. matty referred me to it b4. gotta get me a naked portafiler now. :P i'd still like a face-to-face training session though. anyone interested ? FC will run a course if we get 4 people going.

mattyj

great news remus! If i understand it right, Paul Bassett (world champ barista a few years back) pretty much nailed the world barista championship with a controversial 'updose method' whereby he uses more than the recommended amount of coffee to brew a shot - the recommended amount is ~14g, he would be using ~21g. Even his new machine, the sunbeam 6900 has oversized baskets. According to a review I read, the single basket is 21g (technically a triple basket) and the double basket is 28g (a quad basket!!!!). Needless to say, his shots are thick, syrupy and very intense! I recall someone had a conversation with him about it, and he mentioned that basically, he was 'cheating the beans' into giving a really good extraction ... more beans, more oil to extract ... if you use a small amount of water then I'm guessing there's probably less margin for error. Or something like that... but it's good to hear that you're having a good time! now you get to play around with different dosages and grind levels etc, and discover how many different flavours you can get out of your beans!

Remus

yupp. alot of people put sh*t on paul and his methods but hey...end of the day the bloke won the WT. i say good on him. i'm not particularly fond of the super strong espresso TBO. i much prefer a well blended double shot with a tiny dab of good milk crema to take that edge off.