La Marzocco Linea Mini Home use 1 group release

cosmic_couple22

La Marzocco have been talking about this one for quite a while and have just released it to the US market. Still very pricey at 5K US but I am sure there will be some take up of this machine when it is released here. No bells and whistles just a solid simple workhorse, so anybody wanting a prosumer machine might want to check this one out.

http://sprudge.com/first-look-at-the-new-la-marzocco-linea-mini-73298.html

Chester

FreshCoffee2

I think you have to be a fan of the look of these things. My honest opinion, butt ugly. That is extremely important in any equipment that is going into someone's kitchen, as they then have to look at the thing long term. I am also (as everyone already knows), not a fan of the whole "this is the antzpantz" thing, especially after years of selling equipment where I learned that most people will barely if at all use whatever bells and whistles are provided.  Bells and whistles are used by consumers to tick off on a list of specs, to help them make their choice. Once they have made the choice, most of them (the bells and whistles) go out the window and are never used to any particular advantage. People go on and on about things like "saturated groups". In the end, whether they are available or not makes not one scrap of difference to most, and most dont even know if they have the palate to actually find any differences (if there are any) in the cup as a result of having or not having something like that. There are differences in machines that I do think make significant differences that can easily be discerned by interested consumers, and they can be had for a fraction of the cost that marketers such as LM pitch their offerings to. Does anyone really think that the cost of design and build of  one of these machines, is any more than the cost of design and build of a regular HX machine? Think about it. And its possible that the cost of build of a "regular brand" dual boiler PID machine could even be higher....! What's the retail price all about then? People should go into all this stuff with their eyes open, and look at the offerings critically with regard to what they intend to do with the machine. A machine intended for home use, does not have to have the same list of attributes as one that is going into a commercial situation. A machine that is going into fairly normal home use situation, does not have to be designed and built as if it were a cupping lab model, unless of course the owner's interests lie in that area. As such, consumers could easily save themselves a lot of money and buy something in the vicinity of 3 thou, and probably wouldnt be able to tell the difference in a blind cupping between the cuppa made with the 3 thou machine, and the other made with the 5 thou machine. And in a home use situation when entertaining, they would never touch the sides in terms of the performance capacity of either. And of course you have no idea how many cafes have the required (these days) brand name equipment, yet cant turn out a decent coffee regardless. What lesson do we learn from that? Branding / Market positioning / there are some great success stories out there. Eyes open guys, anyone that thinks that paying a couple of extra g's for a machine really does make a significant discernible difference in the cup or will add significant bragging rights when talking to freinds, should by all means go for it 

Brett H

Great thread and posts!  I love the look of the Faema Legend, Unico Splendor, KVW Spirit(?), but I'm with FC.... That's not a good looking machine.  Sure, I wouldn't kick it out of bed on a cold morning but given the cost is it too much to hope that art could match performance? 

Cuir Beluga

As I suspected Master 16 thinks they look fabbo. I think they look a tad unassuming for the price tag-not that I would know  :P.

Dry_bean.

Have to say I'm with Fresh Coffee on this one, particularly re the appearance. The thing looks boxy and unattractive, almost like a prototype. From the back and side it brings to mind a stealth bomber, certainly not something I could live with in my kitchen. I have no doubt that in the right hands it would make very good coffee, I'm also just as certain that the ham fisted could also consistently pull sink shots with it, same as they can on any other machine. Bells and whistles, IMO simply more settings to confuse the crap out of the budding hipster. FC is certainly in a better position than me to write in detail re machines, reckon he has nailed it with his assessment of this one.

mwcalder

I'd just save my penny's and go for the much more stylish and featured GS3 at the moment. But when the full specs and bench tests come out, I might change my mind...

Moon

4 and a half grand for pure ugly ... pass  >:D

cosmic_couple22

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Moon, but I will stick to the slayer .  @mwcalder the mini is being touted as the analogue version of the GS3, I think with the not so greater price difference the GS3 is a more appealing machine. However the Linea is considered a classic with LM lovers and I believe it will gain some market popularity just because of this. And most of all I love the return of the words and wisdom of Fresh Coffee, we missed you. Chester 

FreshCoffee2

Thanks for your sentiment C. With regard to your comment that the linea model is "considered a classic"..... One school of thought on that could be, that a relatively large quantity of used machines were bought up and imported to Oz., after they were removed form service by a US coffee chain store. From a purely business point of view, that means that some smart operator saw a very good opportunity to pick up equipment at bargain basement price and put it back into use after giving it the once over. This is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying new equpment from anyone, and a job lot of say, a container of used machines can be had for very very small numbers... All of  a sudden then, these coffee machines started to appear all over.  Is the model "considered a classic" then, because it does some special thing to a cuppa that other brand / model machines cant do in the hands of any badly skilled, average or highly skilled espresso machine operators plying their trade and turning out mostly milk based espresso drinks to the masses  here OR....because a smart business operator simply saw an opportunity to significantly reduce his input cost in buying and supplying equipment to cafe clients, and put a large number of them out into the market giving the name cred through sheer numbers and starting the ball rolling on yet another brand entering the market. Is it the bar wrister that's in control of your cuppa, or the brand or model of the equipment that for whatever reason, he has either chosen to specify, or has simply been supplied by his supplier for reasons of the suppliers convenience (meaningful example given). Different (and interesting in terms of the discussion) points of view are available......What does classic mean, and why is a cafe work horse given classic status? To most in the espresso machine trade, ALL commercial espresso machines are nothing more than a means to an end, just like a motor vehicle is to a taxi driver 

askthecoffeeguy

must say I've worked on a lot of espresso machines and the Linea, well maintained, is a workhorse capable in the right hands of producing quality coffee time and time again, and IMHO at least the build quality is a significant drawcard for me many a 10 year old linea is still going strong because of sturdy construction, same goes for kees van der westen - ive killed a number of machines in my time from over-use - the boiler just seems to lose integrity and not be able to keep up with demand, but that's never happened to me on a LM, although I dont doubt that it is possible personally Im a big fan of the linea and i like the styling of the mini, although, I'd probably prefer a mini PB for the same money - still, if i had a lazy few grand lying around, i can think of worse ways to part with my money! Ive owned high end pro-sumer machines in the past, but i still prefer the build quality of a stripped down semi-commercial machine for longevity and their ability to keep up with demand when required to do so best, ACg

mycuppa

I have a couple of customers who have owned and used those 4-group ex- Starbucks Lineas. One of them has their machine taking it's few breaths at this moment - it's basically clapped out and whilst there is quite a market involving rebuilding used LM's, this one is well and truly end of life and being replaced by a PB next week. Over the last 12 months, there has been a "retro" like swing back in favor of the original Lineas - quite frankly for reasons I don't really understand other than bored hipsters unable to conjure up the next fashionable or "really important wave in coffee bling". Specifically, it is perhaps more symptomatic of the Strada's mixed success in the field and more importantly people choosing to ignore that elephant in the room........(yes Strada EP......I'm looking at you !). There are other members of the LM range that are similarly reliable and yet offer features absent on the original Linea that are well proven to contribute towards improved cup and consistency. As an example, a shot timer is invaluable IMO and the GB5 had this as standard for some time. Sure, it's possible to after-market, but why bother frankly - it should be integrated. When you consider that a PB is a mere $1200 more in 3-group configuration yet offers such impressive features as power saving, advanced PID, more suitable group height and the ability to alter the shot dynamics on the fly (instead of trying to change this via clunky menus when you are busy). As a machine, I love many things about the Linea PB. For me an original Linea is like driving a quality 1990 year model European car versus a recent 2015 model. This new Linea Mini has taken a considerably different approach to it's internal design, so despite it's external appearance, I will be eagerly watching the independent bench test results. To balance this post, I always recommend LM to my clients and own and use LM gear myself.

cosmic_couple22

I don't believe the availability is what has bought about the classic title that the Linea holds, it also takes a reputation of being a stable, well built, reliable machine that has a history of being appreciated by those that work on them.  I think the Linea fits that bill with a great deal of baristas having a fond memory of their time on a Linea. Yes La Marzocco have an exceptional advertising program and have developed their brand very effectively but this is still underpinned by a strong product. If "classic' was a term based on availability we would have to put the San Marino Lisa in as a classic although I suspect many would use a few different words to describe her  :rofl:. I agree with you Pat,  if they made it as a PB Linea Mini they would be onto something. Chester

cosmic_couple22

on 1427420926:

Specifically, it is perhaps more symptomatic of the Strada's mixed success in the field and more importantly people choosing to ignore that elephant in the room........(yes Strada EP......I'm looking at you !).

A little sideways step but find this a really interesting comment MC as I have seen quite a few Stradas leave some benches for a (perceived) lesser model LM machine (but obviously less problematic) and quite a few different reasons for the switch.  Did LM bring this machine to the market with too little bench testing? Chester

FreshCoffee2

There are only 3 things required of a good work horse: a) must perform well\ b) must be as reliable as possible c) must be "nice" to use. (SM Lisa was/is a recalcitrant coffee burner so doesnt satisfy criteriaion a) to start with. And why would anyone waste time *modifying* that when it can be simply and quickly and immediately (without time wasted) moved aside and replaced by better equipment in that regard. After that once any commercial espresso machine goes into any cafe, its really up to the expertise and whims of any particular operator. There are plenty of sloppy operators, inexpert operators, expert operators and primma donnas. Actually the expert operators, in addition to the high end type of cafes that may justify the cost of a machine that really does deliver more (and can use it),  are in the minority. The majority of cafes where most of the coffee is used, are not that type (although many want you to believe they are...). There are a number of LM machines of various ages and models in my immediate market, that have a higher percentage breakdown rate than many "regular' brand machines.  And as some of you will know, there is quite a difference between the various models (ie they are not all the same...). Regardless, many operators couldnt make a decent cuppa no matter what you put on the bench in front of them. The original 1961 Faema E61 machine still today (examples well looked after etc), makes a fantastic cuppa and performs well in all areas....better than many el cheapo modern machines. If you do a blind tasting between a Faema E61 and an original Linea, what will it prove, when 95 % of all coffees in this market are milks, however trust network marketers, cyclicly talk up the theoretical attributes of LM as if it were some kind of god that delivers SIGNIFICANTLY better coffee. It would want to, for the amount of hoo haa AND the price difference when you have to buy one. The Faema E61 is a classic, but not all of the miriad different brand and model modern E61 clone machines are so......  What does any of this prove? Every commercial espresso machine no matter what brand, has only a finite service life before it is clapped out and starts getting heavy on the maintenance or should be changed out. In a busy cafe, that life is not long. Yet some comments would have you believe that LM brand machines magically outlast all else (my words)...  they ALL wear out and become unreliable. There are some really (really) great multi boiler PID machines from "regular" brand names now that are very reliable and deliver the goods (excellent cup, consistency).....but havent had the "treatment" that the LM brand has had so that they can justify their prices. After the marketers have done the job on a brand name and have started to command the price they want for their "brands", it becomes a real hard slog to provide equipment that is being demanded by primma donnas because they think it will do something very special for them, on equipment contract basis which is what 90% of all commercial coffee market is in this country.  On the one hand the clients want the best coffee for the lowest prices, then they also want the most expensive equipment to do the same thing they can do on machines that cost someone else considerably less to place... more cost, longer contracts, higher priced per kilo coffee to help pay for the equipment. It cant help but go round in a circle like that, and there is really only 1 party that wins. That said....and I think I may have said above, that there are some excellent semi commercial espresso machines that can be had for around or under 3 thou these days that really are great performing, reliable machines. Those that reckon they can justify paying the sizeable premim to buy something else because they think it can do something special for them that nothing else can, are very welcome to go there but in the end my opinion is they are just paying a hellova premium for an extremely well marketed tin badge and their two cups of coffee in the morning 

mycuppa

On the topic of "legends". I supply a lot of mobile operators. In the realm of reliability there is nothing that comes close to the extreme stress and torture imposed by mobile operators and it's the real deal in terms of Survivor. Machines subjected to numerous daily bumps shocks and vibrations, dodgy water, variable power, hot and cold, etc. all the things that your installed cafe machines never gets exposed to. A hard working mobile operator will trash a machines inside of 18 months. Many of my customers (despite my advice suggesting they do otherwise) started with LM thinking they needed the brand to make a statement. Inside of 12 months 90% of them swapped for something lower profile (a.k.a. cheaper and more practical) and some have managed to get up to 5 years from their espresso machines. In other examples, we supply some of the biggest cafes in regional VIC who have to deal with quite bad water quality. A few tried LM and put some serious filter systems in place yet we have seen systemic failures in short timeframes (12 months). In these examples we reverted to standard industry machines that seem to be more than twice as reliable as the LM's. Stainless boilers and certain water types do not mix. Some of the biggest volume accounts are not LM, Synesso, KVM or Slayer. Nobody hears about them. Moral of the story - reliability is more than just marketing spin or what you read on forums. It is a shame that compounding hype from regurgitating forum stories - before you know it something is endorsed as a legendary workhorse. P.s. I have a customer with a 2 Year old Linea Classic. It's a dog or a lemon. Or whatever...........4 to 5 failures a year on very modest volumes (running a nominal 30% of rated capacity)

Brett H

Holy crikey you two, we are going to have to start charging admission to this thread... Industry knowledge, secrets, experience and best yet, beautifully written.  My question is this.... Are the LM internals and parts different brands/designs/makes to the other 'practical' commercial machines?

GeekKopi

Price has been released. It's a little shy of $5000 here in Australia.

Brett H

You know that's not what I expected. I was thinking $7-8k.  I'm still not interested because I like my machine too much (and I don't have the money).

Koffee_Kosmo

The styling is a little bland for me It actualy looks a little like a Bezzera BZ40 but in mono-colour But in the end it's what sort of coffee it will produce ? That's the $5,000 question 

GeekKopi

For $5K it's pretty ugly imho. Don't care how nice of a coffee it could produce if I'll be dreading making coffee with it due my my eyes hurting. [emoji37]

askthecoffeeguy

I cant believe that for that price its going to produce significantly better quality than a lessor price machine Still, there's a lot of new semi commercial single group machines on the market for around the $3500 mark - so that's not a huge step up price wise personally Ive bought a few 2nd hand single group semi commercial machines in the past (bezzera / cimbali / rancilio) for home use and occasional coffee catering - and they've all been work horses capable of producing very good coffee, and great for dealing with relative volume (I've knocked out 60 coffees /hot chocolates in an hour before from a single group - but its damned hard work!) I suppose that it should also be noted that in a competitive market place some customers will walk into your joint, take a look at the equiupment you're using, and if it hasnt got the 'bling' factor, they'll walk out again - i know this from personal experience: coffee sales went up when I got the Kees Van der Westen at my last joint.  And in fact if im out and about and i want to buy a coffee then ill definitely check out what's on the bench when making my purchase decision about who to buy from. Does fancy equipment make for better coffee? Not always.  But in most instances if an operator is going to lay down their hard earned for something fancy, you would assume that they'd follow up with appropriate staff training to drive that machine Doesn't always work, and it doesn't matter what equipment you use if the product you're using is no good yesterday at Campberwell market I had a perfectly acceptable and quite decent coffee from an operator using a no frills machine.  But i watched his technique on the machine and observed his passion and consistency for his product - and the resulting coffee was bloody good! whereas last week I had 3 takeaway coffees in one day all in the city from 'reputable' cafes, all using top end equipment - one was great, one tasted like apple pie, and i threw the other one away.. p

GeekKopi

on 1432516051:

I cant believe that for that price its going to produce significantly better quality than a lessor price machine Still, there's a lot of new semi commercial single group machines on the market for around the $3500 mark - so that's not a huge step up price wise personally Ive bought a few 2nd hand single group semi commercial machines in the past (bezzera / cimbali / rancilio) for home use and occasional coffee catering - and they've all been work horses capable of producing very good coffee, and great for dealing with relative volume (I've knocked out 60 coffees /hot chocolates in an hour before from a single group - but its damned hard work!) I suppose that it should also be noted that in a competitive market place some customers will walk into your joint, take a look at the equiupment you're using, and if it hasnt got the 'bling' factor, they'll walk out again - i know this from personal experience: coffee sales went up when I got the Kees Van der Westen at my last joint.  And in fact if im out and about and i want to buy a coffee then ill definitely check out what's on the bench when making my purchase decision about who to buy from. Does fancy equipment make for better coffee? Not always.  But in most instances if an operator is going to lay down their hard earned for something fancy, you would assume that they'd follow up with appropriate staff training to drive that machine Doesn't always work, and it doesn't matter what equipment you use if the product you're using is no good yesterday at Campberwell market I had a perfectly acceptable and quite decent coffee from an operator using a no frills machine.  But i watched his technique on the machine and observed his passion and consistency for his product - and the resulting coffee was bloody good! whereas last week I had 3 takeaway coffees in one day all in the city from 'reputable' cafes, all using top end equipment - one was great, one tasted like apple pie, and i threw the other one away.. p

The thing I look for in a cafe is if the machine is clean, if the operator purges wands and uses separate cloths and if they grind on demand or if they have a doser filled with grounds from before. I checked out this new cafe in West Footscray where the food was bloody great and I thought id get a coffee but when I saw the operator just throw in a new bag of beans in the hopper and started filling up the dosing chamber without dialling in the grind I thought "no way" and waited till I got home to make a real coffee. Even if he dialled in the grinder by the time I got my order in and made those coffee grounds would be, well on the stale side. Bottom line is I observe the barista first, have a chat with him/her then order if I'm happy. Machine type is not that important as long the barista knows what they are doing and the machine is clean. I can't stress that enough. Also I pay attention to how they handle their cups too. Nothing puts me off more than a barista that puts his/her fingers on the lip of the cup or inside the cup. That's just me. [emoji41] And sorry for getting off topic.

askthecoffeeguy

agreed - its the man (or woman) who maketh the beans! p

Kevohere

on 1432538486:

Nothing puts me off more than a barista that puts his/her fingers on the lip of the cup or inside the cup. That's just me. [emoji41] And sorry for getting off topic.

Totally agree with this one mate. Many a time I have seen takeaway cups picked up, order written them and then placed on or near the machine with the fingers inside the rims. Apparently this is common when 2 or more cups are ordered together. (Pen in writing hand, place cups with other).  :pan I noticed this at a Michelles some years ago, pointed it out to the lady taking the orders and received a "what's your problem" look. Needless to say, I cancelled the order and asked for my money back, (please). Just one reason (of many) as to why I no longer do takeaway! And sorry for continuing the "off topic"  :coffee:

askthecoffeeguy

pretty sure its a breach of food safety regulations to be putting  your fingers inside the cup!

GeekKopi

on 1432608706:

pretty sure its a breach of food safety regulations to be putting  your fingers inside the cup!

Most likely is. And so is using the steam wand cloth to wipe down the bench which I've seen a few times in cafes.

Lwowiak

on 1432608706:

pretty sure its a breach of food safety regulations to be putting  your fingers inside the cup!

How about the basic hygiene standard of washing your hands after going to the toilet? I am amazed how many males (wearing clothes that easily identify them as being in a role where they are in contact with food) do not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. You would think that at the very least they would wash their hands upon returning to their place of work, but I have seen them ignore even this "etiquette".

Brett H

on 1432610964:

How about the basic hygiene standard of washing your hands after going to the toilet? I am amazed how many males (wearing clothes that easily identify them as being in a role where they are in contact with food) do not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. You would think that at the very least they would wash their hands upon returning to their place of work, but I have seen them ignore even this "etiquette".

I worked at a very low-end restaurant as a student but to their credit staff were told that after clocking on the very next step was to wash hands and forearms with soap in the sink before entering the kitchen.  It only takes a small policy shift to save a lot of money!!!

Cuir Beluga

on 1432608706:

pretty sure its a breach of food safety regulations to be putting  your fingers inside the cup!

That is like people licking their fingers to make it easy to grab a paper bag to put your pasty in  :o.

Paolo

on 1432619470:

That is like people licking their fingers to make it easy to grab a paper bag to put your pasty in  :o.

Don't you just HATE that! I also have a problem with people who lick their fingers in order to turn a page in a book....makes you wonder about the multitude of sins that has gone before you get to read a book that you borrow from a library! I am a LM devotee. I have visited the factory in Florence and count it as one of the highlights of my European visit. I have owned a single goup Linea for nearly six years now. I could have bought the GS3 instead but pimped the Linea with a Piero group cap and other mods in the interest of obtaining a machine that would last for decades. Besides fitting a new pump last year and a new water level probe back in 2010, it hasn't missed a beat. Is it over-designed for home use? Don't know about that. Its grouphead reaches operating temperature 15 minutes after turning the machine on...it feels like it will go forever. Will the mini keep the flag flying for LM?  All press from people who have actually used one (that I have read to date) has been quite favourable. If I had room for another machine I reckon that I would get one. I wish LM well with this venture.

Cuir Beluga

on 1432686732:

Don't you just HATE that! I also have a problem with people who lick their fingers in order to turn a page in a book....makes you wonder about the multitude of sins that has gone before you get to read a book that you borrow from a library! I am a LM devotee. I have visited the factory in Florence and count it as one of the highlights of my European visit. I have owned a single goup Linea for nearly six years now. I could have bought the GS3 instead but pimped the Linea with a Piero group cap and other mods in the interest of obtaining a machine that would last for decades. Besides fitting a new pump last year and a new water level probe back in 2010, it hasn't missed a beat. Is it over-designed for home use? Don't know about that. Its grouphead reaches operating temperature 15 minutes after turning the machine on...it feels like it will go forever. Will the mini keep the flag flying for LM?  All press from people who have actually used one (that I have read to date) has been quite favourable. If I had room for another machine I reckon that I would get one. I wish LM well with this venture.

I certainly do Paulo, I am sure my belly flips each and every time I see it. Hubby does it with books, his books, and it grosses me out *insert puking smiley here*.