Coffee shots, weight versus volume.

Dry_bean

AM wrote:

Bugger... I have spent all my time trying to learn how to balance on one foot and look at the sky as some one once said that was teh best way.. And now you guys offer other methods. Who cares how you do it, so long as you get what you want and your consistent.... Coffee is like Medicine it is NOT an EXACT science there are too many variables INCLUDING CLUMPING :o Then when INTJ's get into coffee - what can one expect... Stands up straight and tall and presents scarred back, ready for the knives ;D

CLUMPING, isn't that something New Zealanders do on stage in muddy gumboots? INTJ's???? does not compute., no knives around here, we check em at the door.:-\

Dry_bean

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

As a matter of interest KK, I didn't post my original thoughts because I'm having problems, I'm very happy with my current set up and the results I'm achieving, it simply seemed like an interesting subject worth discussing in a civilised environment. Grin

I knew that because you indicated it on your first post 😉 My reply is also a method that I have described on many occasions but alas some people just don't get the simplicity ??? Maybe that's the problem its not analytical enough and has no bells and whistles ;D KK

Reckon most of us are heading for the same destination, just that there are a lot of roads leading there. I'm not suggesting for a minute others adopt my way or agree with my thoughts, as I said, it seemed an interesting topic, in particular the difference in weight between light and dark roasts, never seen it touched on before. As AM said, no right or wrong, it's what's in the cup that matters. ;D

Koffee_Kosmo

Reckon most of us are heading for the same destination, just that there are a lot of roads leading there. I'm not suggesting for a minute others adopt my way or agree with my thoughts, as I said, it seemed an interesting topic, in particular the difference in weight between light and dark roasts, never seen it touched on before. As AM said, no right or wrong, it's what's in the cup that matters. ;D

Grind size as well as roast depth all have an affect on actual "ground bean volume" And that's the reason weight wont work every time and my method does work every time (for me at least) as it only relies on the machines tolerances I enjoy beautiful coffee every day just like the videos I posted above Another tip is that if you level fill the basket you are using with roasted beans and grind that quantity, then you will be close to 99% of the actual amount of ground beans you will need for the shot you are about to pull KK

Dry_bean

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

Reckon most of us are heading for the same destination, just that there are a lot of roads leading there. I'm not suggesting for a minute others adopt my way or agree with my thoughts, as I said, it seemed an interesting topic, in particular the difference in weight between light and dark roasts, never seen it touched on before. As AM said, no right or wrong, it's what's in the cup that matters. ;D

Grind size as well as roast depth all have an affect on actual "ground bean volume" And that's the reason weight wont work every time and my method does work every time (for me at least) as it only relies on the machines tolerances I enjoy beautiful coffee every day just like the videos I posted above Another tip is that if you level fill the basket you are using with roasted beans and grind that quantity, then you will be close to 99% of the actual amount of ground beans you will need for the shot you are about to pull KK

Fair enough, whatever works for you, weight works for me 100% of the time and yep, I achieve results very similar to what we see in your video. "Grind size as well as roast depth all have an affect on actual "ground bean volume" I'm well aware of this and have mentioned it a couple of times. "that's the reason weight wont work every time and my method does work every time" now that's a bold statement, guess I'm going to have to riposte by saying that's the reason volume wont work every time but my method does, for me any way. :🙂 As far as I'm concerned weight is the way to go, have done volume tests involving baskets then weighed the contents, I found variations of up to + - approx 1 gram, that's a variation of about 5% way too imprecise to satisfy me. Somehow I doubt either of us will convince the other to change, vive la diff

beanflying

At the end of the day one method adjusts the grind size based on a "normal" weight or volume to get a result in the cup. The biggest variable between both methods is actually the grinder setting 😉

WotB

Looks like the typical tag-team to me. Probably why I only lurk nowadays.

Dry_bean

beanflying wrote:

At the end of the day one method adjusts the grind size based on a "normal" weight or volume to get a result in the cup. The biggest variable between both methods is actually the grinder setting 😉

It's a variable, but assuming the use of a reasonable grinder, totally controllable by the operator, also assuming of course the operator has a bit of a clue about what he/she is doing :🙂 assumption can of course be mine fields for the unwary, remember the old saying "Never assume anything

Dry_bean

WotB wrote:

Looks like the typical tag-team to me. Probably why I only lurk nowadays.

Are you referring to the thread over there? ;D

Koffee_Kosmo

I should confess of how my method came to be I was swapping and changing different size baskets to get the strength & flavour results that were pleasing to the pallet for my wife and I At one stage I had a 21 gr La Marzocco basket The weight scenario was a nightmare because of my many basket changes, so I did what any self respecting engineer would to and came up with an alternative If I was to do a cross reference of my method to weigh the puck I would not be surprised to find that the weight will be very close to ideal for the basket capacity KK

WotB

Dry bean. wrote:

WotB wrote:

Looks like the typical tag-team to me. Probably why I only lurk nowadays.

Are you referring to the thread over there? ;D

Why yes, I am. The puppet master and his puppet.

[deleted]

Well....Technique in high volume environments will always seperate the coffee maker from the barista. But a few simple rules about dosing techniques will help you to make a relatively consistant extraction in the kitchen Alternatively weigh your dose and change the grind accordingly to a safe extraction time of 27 sec (if possible) Check out stockfleths method, you trade off complexity for smoothness, but the point is, try different methods, and don't be too fussed about dose weight, Coffee is alive, and will rebel if you try to exact too many parameters upon it

[deleted]

volume and weight are essentially the same thing, oxygen (h20 obviously) is the variable in most comparisons of the same ilk. But very relavent to this question, As a general rule, you are the most fallibe part of the process, but understaning dosing technique will afford you a better understanding of wieght/dose relavance

askthecoffeeguy

What about climate conditions? I set up a cafe in byron recently and had the coffee machine working beautifully on a cool day but the shots were totally gushing when I came back the next day as it was much hotter Had the grinder set up for automated dosage and the tamper was pre set so the only variable left to play with was grind size - surely this as important if not more so than weight or volume ?

[deleted]

I guess I included climate (in my mind) without saying it directly. But definately if you have an auto dose machine, grind change is the ultimate controller. Which I would hope any proud home barista, and at the least a professional, would be approaching coffee from this angle. To fully capture my point here, running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds is the key. Dose technique/volume/weight/grind, change one, and all others will have to change accordingly (to the 27 sec rule)

askthecoffeeguy

flushed wrote:

I guess I included climate (in my mind) without saying it directly. But definately if you have an auto dose machine, grind change is the ultimate controller. Which I would hope any proud home barista, and at the least a professional, would be approaching coffee from this angle. To fully capture my point here, running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds is the key. Dose technique/volume/weight/grind, change one, and all others will have to change accordingly (to the 27 sec rule)

cant agree with you there each grinder / coffee machine set up works differently and what works for one does not nec work for all - also machines such as the one I use at my work need to specifically set up and designed to accommodate 24g baskets, and can run shots for a minute or more without blonding or burning the coffee...

Dry_bean

askthecoffeeguy wrote:

What about climate conditions? I set up a cafe in byron recently and had the coffee machine working beautifully on a cool day but the shots were totally gushing when I came back the next day as it was much hotter Had the grinder set up for automated dosage and the tamper was pre set so the only variable left to play with was grind size - surely this as important if not more so than weight or volume ?

I find changes in humidity have a much greater affect on flow rate than temp changes, the temp can swing quite widely and I find little difference however a sudden increase in humidity will make quite a change to my grinder settings. 🙂

Dry_bean

flushed wrote:

To fully capture my point here, running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds is the key. Dose technique/volume/weight/grind, change one, and all others will have to change accordingly (to the 27 sec rule)

Oh dear, another rule, 27seconds eh, first it was 25 sec's then 30 now it's 27 seconds or does (running your shots to an approximate 27 seconds) give me enough leeway to include 25 and 30? Googled 27 second rule but came up with nothing. :🙂

askthecoffeeguy

I use the 30 from 30 as a guideline only and that's to run a double ristretto from 24g baskets - i guess the good thing here is to fast and it means its time to tighten the shots, and too slow - and it might still be pouring beautifully - and its time to widen the grind in order to crank out the shots in a commercial setting

[deleted]

Well Dry bean Rolling eyes. 27sec rule does give the space to groove. When I speak of such parameters, I am speaking about a standard set up. No super size baskets, no major machine improvements, No hyper geeky super coffee knowledge. The 27sec rule, is not an industry standard, it was my attempt to assist answering the question posed, without over complicating it. Here's a thought.....apply my method to your coffee making, and come back to me when you discover how good the coffee tastes using it. Or just roll your eyes and assume that you know it all.

[deleted]

I fully agree with you Pat, about machine/grinder (and bean if you like) interface being vastly different in the infinate amount of combos you can create. But in the end, I think you need a parameter of working, so as to be able to achieve the best possible result within that parameter. ie; Time - weight - grind setting - etc. Only then can you play with the parameters, which (hopefully) leads you to an alchemical explosion into Espresso Nirvana. In my 12 years of full time professional coffee making. I have changed my methods at least 6 or 7 times. Recently I have adopted the 27sec (thereabouts) method. With three taps, a sweep, a pull and a push. With just the right amount of fairy dust, to make my cup good. And am finding it excessively delightful. Double baskets are around 18/19g. Anyway, set a parameter first, then move on. Like in your (Pat) 30 for thirty.

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