First experiments with the BZ09 (single boiler) and some questions

Lacehim

Hi Kelsey, Read up on temperature surfing. I'm not sure what the difference between a siliva and your machine would be because of the bigger boiler in yours, but it's a good way to keep the temperature consistant over a couple of coffees. Basically wait for the boiler to heat up, the light goes out. It over shoots and you need to wait for it to come down before you pull your shot. A PID would sort all this out, but that can come later when you have the time/cash to do it. I got by with a DMM, which was just placed on the boiler, and even as a temporary solution it can give you can idea what the temps are doing, and when to pull the shot. From memory, my Lucy was around 50 secs from the light going off. Hope you are enjoying playing with your new machine anyway. 🙂 Also you mentioned you are getting 30ml in 30secs. That would be a ristretto from a double basket. Is that what your doing? Remember if your worried about the gauge or anything else ask Chris while it's under warrenty. Also as a cleaning routine, give it a water backflush each day after use, and a chemical backflush once a week or fornight depending on use. During the chemical clean you can do the group handles, baskets and shower screen too. You might already know this stuff, but best to let you know anyway. 😉

UNM

Lacehim wrote:

A PID would sort all this out, but that can come later when you have the time/cash to do it. I got by with a DMM, which was just placed on the boiler, and even as a temporary solution it can give you can idea what the temps are doing, and when to pull the shot. From memory, my Lucy was around 50 secs from the light going off.

I added a PID to my gaggia for less than the cost of adding temp monitoring with a DMM. Now I wish I knew about the Arduino and TC4 board at the time I got the PID, but it cost me around AU$40 all up (PID/themocouple/SSR). If I already owned a DMM with thermocouple, would have been a different matter. Adding PID control doesn't necessarily invalidate the warranty, as the supplier is still bound by legal responsibilities to rectify any defects that occur which would be warrantable. Once you have been inside the machine though, it becomes harder to know if a fault was caused by something you did, or not. One thought that MIGHT be worth pursuing - ask the supplier (Chris?) if they would carry out, or validate, the PID installation as and when you have the money for necessary parts. That way you keep warranty, get a better machine and everyone is happy that they know where they stand. Might cost something up front, but avoid many potential problems later. I'm not sure exactly how your machine behaves relative to mine as the E-61 head will be very different to my big hunk of brass direct coupled to a (tiny) aluminium boiler. I'd go to the aeropress rather than a Gaggia with stock thermostats though as the PID really brought it to life. With your machine, I'd be seriously tempted to go Arduino/TC4/LCD/SSR even though it costs more (maybe $70 for parts) - but then I used to be a geek once upon a time. Just being able to reprogram or datalog your espresso machine through a USB interface has a certain cachet. With the E-61 head you could monitor/log temp there too and potentially on the way through the P/F with a bead thermocouple in your 'scace type device' food for thought, or maybe the other way round 😉

Brett_H

Man you guys are hardcore! He's had the machine 2 days and you've got him ripping the covers off and adding a supercharger, blowers, extractors and running it on nitrous via the Internet. Cool! Seriously, how would a PID help stabilize this particular machine with it's existing components? There are elements in the group for thermal stability, a 1.5l boiler (what are the other internals OPV, Pressurestat?)? I'm only asking because I would have thought this a far more temperature stable machine than a Silvia and I don't understand and I would like to. Izzo has a HX that is PID'd if I'm not mistaken and I've always wondered if this was counter-intuitive?

UNM

Brett H wrote:

Man you guys are hardcore! He's had the machine 2 days and you've got him ripping the covers off and adding a supercharger, blowers, extractors and running it on nitrous via the Internet. Cool!

If it exists, it must be tinkered with.

Brett H wrote:

Seriously, how would a PID help stabilize this particular machine with it's existing components? There are elements in the group for thermal stability, a 1.5l boiler (what are the other internals OPV, Pressurestat?)? I'm only asking because I would have thought this a far more temperature stable machine than a Silvia and I don't understand and I would like to. Izzo has a HX that is PID'd if I'm not mistaken and I've always wondered if this was counter-intuitive?

Don't know the machines. I could well be talking crap, which is why I clarified my environment which is quite different. Of course if you go Arduino, it takes 1-2 mins to reprogram as a simple on/off at set threshold with cool display if you prefer to avoid PID. Did I mention you can add a WiFi interface - more secure than through the internet. What I do know from an owner on another forum is that one (and possibly main) benefit of the PID on the Izzo HX is the ability to easily change temp to suit different beans/roasts/ages. So not adding a whole lot more than a fancy display and access to the pstat adjustment. No reason why a PID on an HX can't work to provide adjustability and reduce deadband. An amateur adding a PID to an HX is likely to cause as many problems as it solves. I wouldn't do it to an HX without being willing to invest a lot of time in tuning. I thought this machine was a single boiler? Edit - just checked thread title. D'Oh, of course it is.

Lacehim

Ahh didn't realise it had all that BH. No wonder he bought that over the ECM ! :o Never seen a BZ09 before myself. I thought it had a boiler just a little bit bigger than a Silvia. 😉 At 1.5lt should be stable enough! ;D No wonder steaming has been an issue. Getting used to good steam pressure after the little Sunbeam might take a while. As far as I know BH a PID just keeps the temperature stable at a preset temp. I suppose this would allow for fine tuning the temperature at the group. I dare say most folk wouldn't notice the different. For the small boiler machines like the silvia, lelit it does help. I would imagine that Kelsey would still have to let the machine recover slightly before pulling the next shot though. Not too long, probably wait till the boiler light goes off. Kelsey. To practice your milk technique just put some cold water in a jug to the same level as your milk, put a tiny drop of dishwashing detergent (the green stuff ya wash the dishes with when the dishwasher is broke). Great for practicing and saves $$$ 🙂

Lacehim

UNM wrote:

If it exists, it must be tinkered with.

Agreed ;D I love to "fix" things too...

UNM

AngerManagement wrote:

Thus again, size matters as there is usually much better thermal stability in a 9L or 4L or 1L boiler than in a 300ml 😃

Perhaps I need some form of size enhancement. Mine is about 120ml :-[ But then there is a big hunk of brass, decent heater and water inlet is at the bottom. For one double shot with a 30 min rest period, works fine. Must get back to working on the Azkoyen though - 9l would be nice to get up and running.

Kelsey

Sorry for the delay, been a crap day. 🙁 The boiler, unfortunately, is not quite that big - but I know why everyone thinks it is. The first search result in Google says 1.5 litres. The manual says 500ml. So definitely enough for some temperature fluctuation. It's 40% larger than the Silvia's boiler and has heating probes in the grouphead. While not as stable as an HX by any means or something with a large boiler, along with the sturdy construction these factors are why I chose the BZ09 in the first place. Now I'll try for some more specific replies: @Lacehim - I think you're right, I'll need to do some temperature surfing to figure out the optimal timing for this machine. As to the actual volume, I need to get a measuring glass, but I'm getting approximately 60ml in 30 seconds from a double, when I get it right. I'm going into two glasses with that. I'm REALLY going to have to practice my milk stretching. I'm using KK's technique, but there's just so much steam that I'm getting foam that's too stiff. I know his tutorial says to use the full power but I think I might have to dial it back a little. @AngerManagement, @UNM - I have a weakness for anything technical and data related, so UNM's wifi'd PID datalogger sounds pretty awesome. I've also been looking for an excuse to play around with arudino for a while. But..... I also think I need to understand the 'foundations' of what I'm doing here. If I understand what the machine's doing at any given point and can work within its unmodified framework, then I'll have a true understanding of the process. Which is at least partly the point of doing all this! @Brett H - It's got an OPV, not sure what a pressurestat is - Chris sent over the manual, but it's still not the most informative bit of literature on the planet..... 😃 Tried you Indian/PNG blend today BTW - lovely, lovely brew with a ton of crema. Thanks again for that!! --- My main concerns are now cleaning and milk steaming process. CLEANING - @lacehim - Backflush daily? That often? MILK - Reason the first (re: proper procedure and element-burn-out-nerves) The manual says to: 1) Turn on the steam button, the red steam light and the orange boiler light will go on 2) Open the steam tap and let out some water (about 10 secs) for the steam volume to expand, then close the tap 3) Wait until the orange boiler light goes out 4) Steam merrily 5) After steaming, open the tap again quickly to clean 6) Turn off steam 7) Prime boiler by running water through the group. The manual actually says to do this via pumping water through the steam wand, but since the 'brew' switch is hit either way I reckon this doesn't matter. Does this seem like a 'normal' procedure? A fair amount of water is discharged during these 10 seconds. Clearly not 500ml tho, so I assume the boiler's not in any danger of burning out its element?

Lacehim

With my silvia & San Marino I backflushed daily. ie with the blind filter in, no chemicals. Just a water flush. Then every 1 or 2 weeks a chemical flush with backflush cleaner. This machine looks like he has a 3 way? Is that correct anyone? Is there any reason for Kelsey shouldn't be backflushing this machine? I've personally backflushed every machine I've owned with a 3 way with no ill effects. 🙂 Also with my silvia I used to prime the boiler using the steam wand just after I turned it on. Then after pulling a shot I would then steam my milk. Then I would wipe the wand, and turn the steam on into a spare jug, and hit the hot water button. That would fill the boiler back up and also cleans out the want. turn off the hot water, and close the steam tap. Your all primed for your next coffee! 🙂 Off to make woodfired pizza. Mmmm

Kelsey

My ear?!?! Now I'm thoroughly confused!

Lacehim

Welcome to the world of coffee. I've got some cleaner here, no blind filter though 🙁 Might beable to use an old basket which I have if you need. 🙂 It's pretty easy, just not that easy to explain on a forum. ;D

Brett_H

A lack of a blind filter won't stop you backflushing. Just cut out a circle from an old rubber mouse mat and line the bottom of the pf with it... just test it in boiling water first to ensure it doesn't leave more bad stuff than you started with!!! Somebody stop me if my advice is rotton but I did this with Silvia in the early days and she wasn't broken.... flames are good yes....?

Kelsey

A mouse What? 😉 It's been a long time since I've used anything other than a graphics tablet! Do you think it'd work of I started hacking into that? ;D Looks like another trip to Clark rubber - where I got an off cut to make an improvised tamp mat.

Brett_H

My Laptop is a tablet which is so good... I use a mouse! My work issued Wacomm drawing thingy found the recylers long ago. I'd have happily cut it up to make a blind!

Kelsey

Not yet, unfortunately. I left for Sydney before Chris got back from Italy. I'll sort it out in the next week or two. I'll be back early next week, so hopefully the timing will work out for Noosa, I'd really enjoy that.

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