Grinders Coffee

FreshCoffee2

I like the idea of simplifying this discussion so lets have another go at it and bring it down to the lowest common denominators. The ultimate goal is to give the paying client a good brew. The client has no way of comparing one day's brew from the previous day's brew, so comparisons are futile and exist only in the mind rather than in reality. I believe the punter just wants a good brew and to be left alone to enjoy, pay and leave, and if he is really going to be expected to make a judgment, would need to compare 2 identical coffees made with the 2 different blends, at the same time, by the same operator, for a direct comparison. Otherwise the information you will obtain is useless and a waste of time and should be treated as such. If a cafe client needs to ask his customers what they think of a blend he is trying, then he should be in another business, in any case the caf

FreshCoffee2

I've found this banter about using local roaster / suppliers interesting and would like to expand the topic a little under it's own heading, so if interested please check out the new topic. FC.

diplomat

I think that if you discount wat customers have to say then you really are are being arrogant and small minded it is their money after all, that makes our world go round. and when i talk about taste i understand that there are many factors involved, including alll your many points.

FreshCoffee2

Re: "...I think that if you discount wat customers have to say then you really are are being arrogant and small minded it is their money after all, that makes our world go round..." No one should discount what their clients have to say, however on face value the above appears to show that you have misunderstood everything that's already been written. The general public as a whole, can only judge one thing...does their cup of coffee meet their expectation of what they think is good. Most have no concept of, and are unable to discern (and for that matter are not really interested in) whether their good cup of coffee was the result of a particular brand of coffee, or a good espresso machine operator doing his job properly, or both. Their taste buds are also heavily influenced by brand marketing and advertising, and therefore their perceptions of brands, rather than making decisions based on fairly set up blind tastings and comparisons. More importantly, many would not know (or care) that what they just tasted was heavily influenced by the espresso machine operator (50% operator, 25% coffee, 25% equipment). Some might be happy to allow unqualified, biased opinions from their cafe clients to influence their choice of supplier or their relationship with their supplier. I'm not...but when it's all said and done it's all in the way you treat your clients when they offer you their opinion, isn't it? FC.

[deleted]

dimmatina is not a local perth cmopany mimmo! it is a melbourne based company and the fact that they sell so much of it in perth cafes tells as much about perth cafe owners as the coffee.

Gonzo

decisions by many cafe owners to use either this coffee supplier or that, have very little to do with the real flavour or "quality" of any particular brand of coffee beans, and plenty to do with all and other sundry reasons and inducements. So your point is ? G.

[deleted]

that is my point buddy 8) ...for 95% of perth cafe owners, the freebies they can extract from coffee companies saying "let me be your bitch" is far more important than quality considerations.

[deleted]

Grinders coffee is no longer roasted in melbourne. It is roasted in Sydney. The history of grinders was a company that establish a great coffee. 3 years ago grinders was ahead of all commercial coffee. They gain clients in major restaurants in Melbourne and had a great product. However!!!!! they became greedy and hungry for money. They expanded fast and start looking at the bottom line. With their brand gaining enormous popularity they they grew to big to fast Now you see light coloured beans, dark colour and just nasty husky rubbish. You cant get a "god shot" from grinders because its full of husky grind. I've put over 23 grams in a basket and i still got crap. It comes out like creamy soda and you see the crema and then it disappears. They have poor ethics with clients. I know of many cafes being burnt by "grinders" If a cafe opens next to you and sells grinders that doesnt make you exclusive to the area. Most coffee companies have regions. Reasons why not to use grinders 1 Bad beans 2 Bad roasting 3 How will you feel when you neighbouring cafe sells the same coffee as you. 4 If the rep says they wont do that, look at the melbourne market. 5 They look out for their own best interest 6 Poor crema 7 Poor robusta beans 8 Extremely cheap coffee 9 Support local roasters 10 Large 3 kg bags which once open will go even worst 11 The time it comes all the way from the east coast to the west coast its gonna be older than old. 12 mixing of light and dark roast 13 Fresh beans is the best way to go 14 grinders sells to anyone. Milk bar accounts whoever whats it. 15 Woody favour 16 grey in texture, end up with grey lattes 17 makes terrible expresso 18 You cant make ristretto with grinders 19 Husky grind 20 JUST BAD COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!! dont risk all that hard work in a business and settle for rubbish. It aint worth it!

[deleted]

Wood chips and nescafe = Grinders We use to use grinders in our cafe and it was really bad. It was sooooo hard to make coffees when the beans would be different from bag to bag. Then a few other cafes around us started sell it. I made a good coffee but the problem was the other competitors made a terrible grinders coffee. Being next door to me, my branding was affected. People associated my coffee with them. The sales rep had nothing to say. Was extremely dissappointed. Change coffee and things have looked up. Selling 5 kgs more a week with that decision.

Gonzo

Ok that's enough. I dont use grinders, I dont work for them, never have, I'm not an agent for them, never been a subbie for them, couldn't care less about them one way or the other. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to accept a dirty hatchet job on them or anyone else from inexpert, uninformed commentators. "3 years ago grinders was ahead of all commercial coffee" Baseless comment; "they became greedy and hungry for money. They expanded fast and start looking at the bottom line. With their brand gaining enormous popularity they they grew to big to fast" Baseless comment; "You cant get a "god shot" from grinders because its full of husky grind: Wrong. A good or bad shot is within the responsibility of the operator behind the machine and happens irrespective of you finding some husk content; "I've put over 23 grams in a basket and i still got crap" No wonder. Is this a test of true coffee knowledge or something? You would be hard pressed on most machines to get much more than around 19 grams maximum into a double filter without tamping with the force of superman into an OVER fine gind and still be able to engage the bayonet lugs into the group ring. Your water pump wouldn't push water through the puk. A crappy brew from inability to set up the equipment properly is your problem not your suppliers problem; "It comes out like creamy soda and you see the crema and then it disappears." So this definitely suggests the "operator" got the grind/dose relationship totally effed up. You say this somehow is grinders problem? "They have poor ethics with clients. I know of many cafes being burnt by "grinders": Baseless comment; "If a cafe opens next to you and sells grinders that doesnt make you exclusive to the area. Most coffee companies have regions." Wrong again...there is no "exclusivity" except in the minds of the naive, everyone else gets business wherever they can. "Reasons why not to use grinders" 1 Bad beans (only your opinion) 2 Bad roasting (only your opinion) 3 How will you feel when you neighbouring cafe sells the same coffee as you (wake up and take some reponsibility. Dare to try and attract clientelle because of your own image and capability, not due to someone elses brand on a wind barrier, ok?) 4 If the rep says they wont do that, look at the melbourne market (no rep doing his job properly for his employer would tell you that) 5 They look out for their own best interest (and you dont?) 6 Poor crema (your inability to set equipment I'm afraid) 7 Poor robusta beans (it so happens robusta is very high in oil content and aids production of crema...see 6, cant have it both ways) 8 Extremely cheap coffee (so you used to be a green bean buyer & know all about grading & purchasing coffee for a roasting plant?) 9 Support local roasters (Correct, they should have the freshest roasts) 10 Large 3 kg bags which once open will go even worst (presumably you could ask for 1 kilo bags and of not, YOU could try opening the 3 kg bag, place in an airtight container and take out a little at a time...couldn't you???) 11 The time it comes all the way from the east coast to the west coast its gonna be older than old (depends on age of roast ex roasting plant, time taken to ship to your market, & storage time with your distributor before eventual delivery to cafes) 12 mixing of light and dark roast (maybe that's the idea of the blend you bought...did you ask them? This style used to be called "french roast" and is a legitimate type of blending technique) 13 Fresh beans is the best way to go (Correct) 14 grinders sells to anyone. Milk bar accounts whoever whats it. (and so do you, or do you discriminate between suits, jeans, shorts, or king gee work wear when they walk in the door with money in their pockets ready to buy) 15 Woody favour (it's within your capacity to ask the rep for a different blend if you dont like that one...no? I dont know too many roasters that only do one blend) 16 grey in texture, end up with grey lattes (back to your own inabilities, or your own choice of blend I'm afraid) 17 makes terrible expresso (cant spell one of the most important words in the coffee market at the moment, so can you brew espresso properly?) 18 You cant make ristretto with grinders (why not? What cant you work out?) 19 Husky grind (and the relevance is?) 20 JUST BAD COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!! Uninformed, baseless slander. End part 1. See next post for part 2

Gonzo

Part 2, read on: "dont risk all that hard work in a business and settle for rubbish. It aint worth it!" No argument in principle here, but not in the context that you have attempted to mean above. "Wood chips and nescafe = Grinders" Baseless comment, although I really like the analogy! "We use to use grinders in our cafe and it was really bad." Another baseless comment. "It was sooooo hard to make coffees when the beans would be different from bag to bag." It is simply NOT possible to get differing content in 2 consecutive bags from the same delivery. The chances are that your delivery of say 20 kilos all comes from the same batch, the blend is fully mixed before packaging. Reality check please. "Then a few other cafes around us started sell it. I made a good coffee but the problem was the other competitors made a terrible grinders coffee. Being next door to me, my branding was affected. People associated my coffee with them." Rubbish. Your cafe sells itself and if you make a good cuppa and good food, the clients come to you instead of going next door where as you said, they make terrible coffee. "The sales rep had nothing to say." Already covered above "Change coffee and things have looked up. Selling 5 kgs more a week with that decision." Ok, so now we know you have been feeding us a load of crock. Noone but NOONE, sells an extra 500 cups of coffee a week by changing their coffee supplier....Maybe if a few hundred extra people had just moved into the office building next door. You weren't trying to pull our legs were you? G.

Spjarli_Coffee

Well said Gonzo, I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, I have been served bad Grinders coffee. Ditto for Lavazza, Genovese, Gravity and the other roasters, big and small. At the same time I've had plenty of good coffees from each of these roasters. So it would seem to me that it's not the problem of the roasters but of the so-called 'baristas', many of them glorified coffee-makers. (I hate the increasing usage of this Italian word but that's a personal opinion.) And whilst many people on this forum would never admit it themselves, I have made bad coffee before too but I never blamed the roaster. I am not claiming that all roasters have an equally good product but perhaps it is time the people making the coffee took a bit more responsibility for their product. And one further point, enough of this purist mentality about business being somehow anathema to the coffee-making 'art' (see earlier post slagging off roasters who supply to milk bars). A few people need to wake up and smell the coffee because their noses are obviously so far up their backsides...

Gonzo

What these people fail to remember EVERY SINGLE TIME as well as ***TO THEIR OWN DETRIMENT*** is that 50% of the equation really is due to the effort of the "coffee maker", and 25% each is then shared out amongst the coffee beans used, and the state of tune / condition of the equipment. I know it's a cliche, but it's as simple as that. So while they are busy trying to shift the reponsibility for their own ineffectiveness and slagging off on their coffee supplier (and one day one this kind of thing is going to land them in court), at the same time they really are showing their own ineffectiveness and ineptitude in the job AND are underestimating themselves in their own possible importance in the job...if they were doing it properly. Talk about selling themselves short. Now I'm going back to my glass of chardonnay and if you mention that word "barista" one more time, I am going to choke and end up with a cerebral embolism. These people are not a barista's arse hole. Had enough of phoney baristas who dont know their job....their inability to accept responsibility unfairly destroys others good names and costs the industry TIME, and TIME IS MONEY. G.

john_2

Gonzo and Spjarli I think you have both hit the nail well and truly on the head. There are too many prima donnas or prima donjuans who have done the obligatory 3 hour Barista course, made 1 latte and 1 cappuccino and then graduated with honours. Their average knowledge of various roasts, freshness, equipment issues, etc leave a lot to be desired. However, they are Baristi, because they have a certificate that says so. JD

Reschsmooth

It's a bit like a real estate agent, having done a two week TAFE course calling themselves an adviser....all they want to do is flog properties at any price to get the commission now rather than wait for it. Sorry, my mocha double decaf latte is ready....see ya

Gonzo

Ladies and gentlemen of the Forum....you are giving these wankers too much credit. The truth of the matter is that they probably HAVE NOT done any kind of course, let alone one of the "you pays your money for a 3 hour introductory course and you gets a qualification" type of course. The state of development of the "coffee maker" sector in this country is basically in its infancy. We spend a lot of time in forums like this debating ethical quality in the cafe and coffee industies generally, but the fact of the matter is that out there at the moment...in the real world...is a burgeoning "espresso cafe" industry that just popped up out of nowhere. Kind of like an "Acme" cafe industry, add water and bingo, instant cafe industry, full of instant experts who lack expertise, experience and knowledge. We should still be calling them Milk Bars I'm afraid. Now beat the crap out of me for saying these things if you must but remember, todays society is full of those who dont want to, or cant bear to, handle the truth. Nothing is ever their fault, it's always someone elses. Read the two offending posts. Its all there...the contradictions, the lack of understanding. On the one hand they're putting 23 grams into the filter, on the other they're getting "grey" lattes. So on the one hand the grounds would have been far too fine and packed up hard so no water comes through, and in the very next "hit" the milk coffee is grey, a classic symptom of under extraction due to over coarse grind. Then there's the outright lies (transparent to industry people with experience, but probably very persuasive to the naive), like the one about how a cafe gained sales of 500 coffees a week by changing supplier. This is very serious outright lying designed to impress others that they should change away from the supplier mentioned. Ignorant, spiteful, vindictive crap, and / or someone probably with some kind of agenda to push. G.

FreshCoffee2

I think we will all most probably agree that this topic is now dead in the water, in any case it was probably already adequately answered early on. However it does beg some questions regarding censorship on the Forum. Take a couple of minutes to think. How many of you would like to be DEFAMED in similar manner as has just happened in this topic? Apparently it's very easily done. It would at first appear that the two defamatory posts were a perfect example of a case FOR censorship and for our esteemed Admin to remove the posts from the Forum as soon as they were spotted. By the same token if someone posts a reply or rebuttal that takes care of it, then I guess there is no need for the censorship. However, there sure does seem to be a case for striking unnaceptable posts immediately they are spotted. The problem with posts like that is that not many would feel confident to reply, either for or against, perhaps for fear of ending up in a mud slinging match, therefore there is a high probablity that such posts would be left on the board basically as the very last reponses to the question and i.e. from that point on, the defamatory posts are the last to be seen by onlookers. Mud sticks. I say personal vendettas need to be kept off-line. Censorship, yeah or neah? FC.

[deleted]

On some lists that are "moderated" (censored ? ? ?) the policy is that outright offensive posts are removed when spotted, and where someone just wants to have a winge about a trader, it is removed unless the post also contains the steps taken by both the person making the complaint and the trader, to rectify the problem. That is, the outcome must also be stated or the post is removed. Just a thought. Mal Real Koffee Politik

john_2

Fresh et al Maybe it is time to ask admin to clear the whole forum and start again. Maybe with a few guidelines. And when this type of subject is posted, it gets killed at once. I know that if I had anything to do with the company so named that I would be kicking a few buts!!!!!!! JD 8) ;D

Reschsmooth

It certainly does raise the issue (if I may as a customer on the Trade section of the forum) of censorship. Participating in other forums which are moderated, there sometimes seems little rhyme or reason for some posts getting through and others being withheld. The idea of these forums is to provide an open, ahem, forum for discussion. Should this extend to allowing blatantly defamotary posts to be read by anyone thus slandering the [good] name of someone or a corporation? As FC mentioned, mud sticks, even if this mud is later cleaned up. That is, make a slanderous comment about someone, and even if proven incorrect, the perception may remain. Perhaps Admin should only allow registered people to post comments? Patrick

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