Recommendations for cheap machine?

odysseus

Hi all,

I found this website via the print magazine, and this is my first post.

Over the past few years I've evolved from a plunger to a stovetop boiler, but now the lack of crema is bugging me and I'm thinking a machine is the way to go.

I'm looking to spend only about $200 to $300 - small beans compared to what it seems some here are paying (pun intended, ha ha), no doubt, but I'm hoping it will still be a significant step up from my stovetop.

I did look at the review article on the website but it's from 2003, and I guess things may have changed. I've also looked at Choice magazine .. but I know someone who worked there for years, and based on his comments I'm not that trusting of what they have to say (regrettably).

So - anyone have recommendations in this price range?? My goal is simply a smooth-tasting, non-burnt espresso with good crema.

And a supplementary question - I do have a grinder, but it's one of those ones you get at Myer for ~$50. Should I be thinking about upgrading this as well, or would the money be better spent on a better machine?

mattyj

DEFINATELY upgrade the grinder!!!! I just upgraded from a Delonghi KG100 to a mazzer mini, and it's made a huge improvement to my espresso - such a better mouthfeel, such a smoother less harsh taste. But you don't have to spend that much to get a good grinder - look into grinders like a Nemox Lux, or even as a beginner grinder, the Delonghi goes well. But be prepared to spend a bit more than what you may imagine ... upgrade fever will hit soon, and the longer you can hold it off, the better. My rule is that if you save longer for something better, you'll be more satisfied for longer...

mattyj

Oh yeah, and on the machine front, Gaggia Carezza's seem to get a good rap - cheap, but good performers!

FreshCoffee2

You are jumping the gun Odysseus! Next issue of Crema magazine will reveal all...hope you dont mind me mentioning this Admin(?). As a private individual I would like to mention that one of the best value machines on the market in the el cheapo price bracket at the moment is a machine that costs somewhere in the vicinity of $150.00 or less (and possibly around $100.00 depending on whose selling it)....Dont know for sure. Its a Sunbean "Ristretto"????? ( help with the name here please Admin). Recognized by its simple cylindrical shape. Works extremely well for the price. As Matty has just mentioned the grinder is important and please take my word for it when I mention that anything under $100.00 (except for the great little Emide grinder) is next to useless and wont do the job properly for a pump driven espresso machine. Or you can go to the $150.00 Solis with conical burrs. Anything other than these two, at the bottom end of the market, I would not touch as they are virtually uselesss for the application. The Lux grinder is a great little domestic grinder but at around $275.00 might be outside your stated budget. Good luck and enjoy. FC.

mattyj

Hey yeah - the sunbeam ristretto is pretty good from what i've heard ... it's got a boiler (instead of a thermoblock ... remember: generally, thermoblock = bad, boiler = good (that said, a thermoblock can achieve good results with heaps of mucking around - speaking from experience)). But you might need to look into replacing the filter baskets once you get it ... email me, and i can give you the part number, available from any sunbeam service centre (check their website for your nearest one), and you'll have a great basket for $18! (Again, email me if you want a rundown of why you'd need a new basket). Sunbeam ristretto's are selling for under $100 at places like myer, and paired with a lux (great grinder), you'd only be spending about $375-400 ... or go for the delonghi grinder as a cheaper option. Mate, that would be a nice setup!

odysseus

Hey, thanks you guys. The Sunbeam Ristretto is looking pretty good. RRP is $109.95 but I'm sure it can be had for less. Still looking at grinders .. google didn't reveal anywhere which sells the Emide grinder, so thanks for your personal message, FC. I took a look at your website (nice, btw) but it doesn't give prices - how much is the Emide?

Lovey

(I hope this is allowed) I saw the 'cafe ristretto' in the latest Retravision catalogue for $77.00. All the best

odysseus

Thanks again, Lovey .. I called and/or visited a couple of Retravisions for it, seems stock availability is a problem at some of them. However: I went to the Retravision Warehouse Clearance Centre at Hornsby (NSW) and when they have the stock in at the end of the week (ie about 24.6), it will actually sell for $67.95!

admin

Hi Odysseus - just thought i'd let you know, we've actually been doing the groundwork for our updated domestic machine review (to be published in Winter issue of Crema) and the Ristretto gave amazing results for a machine in its price range. Obviously, if you could stretch to $450 - $500, the Saeco Via Venezia or Gaggia Classic would be nice to have, but to be honest, the results of the Ristretto were pretty close, and for the price, it really is very impressive. FYI - just one point on thermobloc vs boiler - we (like MattyJ) have always had an inherent preference for boiler, but to be honest, it's getting to the stage where there's no reason - in theory - why you shouldn't get a result as good as, or better than most of the domestic boiler machines in the sub-$1000 price range. Why? because thermobloc gives a constant stream at the appropriate temp (if properly calibrated) whereas a boiler machine will suffer greater heat fluctuations as the boiler empties, refills with cold water and then reheats. Remember, this is conditional on the unit being properly set, but we're finding that the thermobloc performance is no longer the negative it was once thought to be! Best -A

mattyj

Yeah, but the problem is that while a thermoblock gives a consistent stream ... going on what's currently available (still waiting to see how the new SB performs ... whenever they feel like bringing it out) gives a consistently cooler stream than what's needed for espresso. Someone I know did some tests and found that most thermoblocks consistently deliver a stream of around 70C...because of cold water entering the thermoblock, cooling it down. I usually need to run the machine on steam for a few minutes to superheat the thermoblock, then let it cool while I grind, dose, distribute and tamp. I run a quick cooling flush (for like 2 seconds), and it's pretty good for a double shot. Otherwise, I've been getting espresso that's too cool (sour taste). The other shortfall of thermoblocks is their ability to steam a decent load of milk. You can get dry steam from a thermoblock, but not strong steam to whirlpool more than (IME) one drink's worth at a time. Forget making coffee's for a dinner party for six with a thermoblock (unless you plan on spending the entire night in the kitchen pulling shots and steaming milk for one drink at a time). I say this from experience!!!

admin

Matty - depends on the calibration of the bloc; we tested 7 thermobloc and 4x boiler; one of the thermoblocs was consistently delivering water in cup at 84% - too hot! With respect to steaming, again our experience didn't bear out your analysis; if anything, we found with respect to steaming (once you removed their silly 'froth-enhancers') their main fault was wetness of steam. However, the benefit of thermobloc with steaming is the reverse of what you're suggesting - by their very nature, they can keep pumping out steam continuously, effectively until the water tank runs out! -A

Reschsmooth

I will weigh in I have had a Via Vanezia for about 18 months now and for about the last 6 have pulling 'good' espresso and for the last 3 or so have been generating really good microfoam to the point of pouring reasonably good latte art (notwithstanding pouring technique being the main limiter). From a purists' perspective, the process is sub-standard as I pour a shot and then wait a minute before the steam is ready. Steaming enough milk for two drinks takes about 90 seconds or so, so the espresso is sitting there for about 2 and a half minutes before the milk is introduced. Does the coffee taste good? You bet - particularly with freshly [home] roasted beans. Is it technically a perfect coffee? Most likely not. Making coffee for a number of people results in further compromises, but I am able to steam sufficient milk in one go for about 4-6 drinks with decent microfoam. The major compromise is that I pull the shots first meaning that they are cooling for an extended period before the milk is ready. (Do you reckon I should steam the milk to about 100 degrees C to compensate? 😛) The main things I have needed to do to get to this stage is get a decent grinder and non-pressurised filter holder (thanks FC for both of those) and get rid of the intercooled twin-turbo-frother. Patrick

[deleted]

With respect to steaming, again our experience didn't bear out your analysis; if anything, we found with respect to steaming (once you removed their silly 'froth-enhancers') their main fault was wetness of steam. However, the benefit of thermobloc with steaming is the reverse of what you're suggesting - by their very nature, they can keep pumping out steam continuously, effectively until the water tank runs out! -A

In regards to Wetness of steam - yes, at first (when you first switch the pump over to steam) you'll get very wet steam, resulting in watery milk. My practise is to let it steam for about 30-40 seconds, after which you will get drier steam, as the thermoblock gets progressively hotter and hotter (flash steaming the water more effectively). And I never said that thermoblocks can't steam continuously, i'm talking about the strength of the steam - the force at which the steam leaves the nozzle. It's simply not powerful enough to do enough milk for more than one (or, if you're willing to steam for ages, then two) milk drinks worth at a time - effectively that is. Try steaming two or three latte's worth of milk in a bigger jug and you'll see what I mean. It will take a long time, you won't be able to whirlpool the milk effectively enough to combine the milk-bubbles, you will struggle to get a decent amount of foam, and the foam won't be nice, dense, shiny, velvety microfoam. My analysis comes form 18 months of living with a sunbeam cafe crema - with the silly froth enhancer relegated to the third draw from the top (where all the kitchen crap that never gets used lives), and with crema-enhancing baskets replaced with non-pressurised baskets. I've been tinkering with my machine every day for that 18 months, and i'm simply reporting what i've noticed. that 18 months has involved making flat-whites every morning and doppio ristretto's almost every afternoon, as well as a weekly meeting at my place, struggling to make coffees for six people (and taking a very long time to do so), and the occasional dinner party.

Gonzo

Matty, there are quite a few different thermoblock machines made by a few different manufacturers. Depending on the make & model they are controlled to differing degrees, so they dont all display the same characteristics. Just like domestic boiler machines differ individually to eachother due to the same. G.

[deleted]

Gonzo - yeah, for example, i've heard that thermoblocks made by quickmill are pretty good - very stable etc. But for the average chinese made breville/sunbeam/krups(?) aluminium cheapass thermoblocks, i wouldn't be surprised if they all operated pretty similarly. I guess my main point made a few posts above was that 'going on what's currently available'. This super-duper sunbeam isn't out yet, and I haven't seen much better than what's on the shelves at your average myer/dj's. I've also played with a couple of krups's, brevilles and the other sunbeams, and they seem to function the same.

admin

Matty - yes, that's exactly the point - we found a huge variation - between the thermobloc units (and some of the boiler units). Am sure you're right about the Cafe Crema (we didn't do it this time around) but using in-cup temperature as an example, we got Ristretto (in-cup) 71-73 - ie reasonable stability (for a small machine), a little low, temperature-wise; Breville unit 74-78 deg - ie about right (average) temp, but poor stability, one of the deLonghi's at 84/85 deg. ie reasonable stability but way too hot, and the Gaggia Classic (boiler)- consistently 72 deg. - ie brilliant stability, but some would argue, a little low. These are just examples, but the point being, I just don't think you can extrapolate from one machine to all thermoblocs; remember apart from design differences, the critical thing is how they're calibrated. Cheers A PS have just come back from trying out the new Sunbeam 6900. Didn't get to run full range of tests, but beautiful crema & nice tasting coffee!

mattyj

Hey Ash, when you mention all these temps, are you talking celcius, or farenhiet? (sic, i know...) If you're talking celcius, they're all too low - I think you need water more around the 90's (92 - 95), and if you're talking farenhiet (sic...) then it's way too low. And then there's the question - how did you measure the temp?

admin

Deg.C. - we were doing in-cup temp. The most accurate is obviously to measure in the group head where you'd want 92 deg. Celcius. However, given that we couldn't drill holes through the filter basket - we had to give the machines back (& we thought they might notice) we used in-cup temp. as a proxy. The only trick then is to calibrate the drop in temp that you should be getting between the group and the cup. There are several 'suggested' in-cup temps - one expert suggests 74 deg.C; another an 8 deg differential (ie 92-8= 84 deg.) which we felt was too high; the 'official' Italian espresso is approx. 71 deg. in-cup, which we feel is a little low, so we settled on a range of around 74-76 in-cup. -A

Reschsmooth

Hey Matty I am not disagreeing with you in general, although I perhaps seem to have different results steaming a lot of milk with my 'low-grade' machine - I can get whirlpools, good microfoam for latte art, etc, the only problem is that the time taken to achieve this is sometimes measured by calenders rather than stop watches ;D. However, I am not sure if you are intending this or not, but it almost sounds like you are expecting a, say, sub-$600 machine to perform as well as a $2,500 machine, or perhaps criticising these machines for not performing as well as the higher priced machines. As I am sure you understand, there will always be a better mousetrap. I guess this is the problem with this area (coffee fanatacism) in that upgrade fever is a difficult ailment to quash. Not sure if I read it here or another coffee related site, but I saw a comment that read: "Thanks for visiting, sorry about your wallet" Patrick

mattyj

Ash - thanks for clearing that up! Patrick - yeah, i guess my expectations are too high for what a $300 machine can achieve. This probably comes from my frustration that my machine doesn't perform as well as I'd like it to - at least being able to cope with two latte's worth of milk, effectively. It can be done, but like you said, you measure how long it takes with a calendar, not a stopwatch... ...I wil come back to my point though, that generally, thermoblocks (of the three different brands i've used) don't have a whole lot of steam power. I guess that means that if you want a home machine that will be able to cater for a few friends coming over for a coffee, you need to look at spending more money. ... hence the upgrade coming my way in a few months!!! Bring on the Heat-Exchange, E-61, Expobar Leva!!! But then, this is all getting way off topic - have you purchased a machine and grinder yet, Odysseus? How's it all going?