Recommendations for cheap machine?

admin

Hi Odysseus - just thought i'd let you know, we've actually been doing the groundwork for our updated domestic machine review (to be published in Winter issue of Crema) and the Ristretto gave amazing results for a machine in its price range. Obviously, if you could stretch to $450 - $500, the Saeco Via Venezia or Gaggia Classic would be nice to have, but to be honest, the results of the Ristretto were pretty close, and for the price, it really is very impressive. FYI - just one point on thermobloc vs boiler - we (like MattyJ) have always had an inherent preference for boiler, but to be honest, it's getting to the stage where there's no reason - in theory - why you shouldn't get a result as good as, or better than most of the domestic boiler machines in the sub-$1000 price range. Why? because thermobloc gives a constant stream at the appropriate temp (if properly calibrated) whereas a boiler machine will suffer greater heat fluctuations as the boiler empties, refills with cold water and then reheats. Remember, this is conditional on the unit being properly set, but we're finding that the thermobloc performance is no longer the negative it was once thought to be! Best -A

mattyj

Yeah, but the problem is that while a thermoblock gives a consistent stream ... going on what's currently available (still waiting to see how the new SB performs ... whenever they feel like bringing it out) gives a consistently cooler stream than what's needed for espresso. Someone I know did some tests and found that most thermoblocks consistently deliver a stream of around 70C...because of cold water entering the thermoblock, cooling it down. I usually need to run the machine on steam for a few minutes to superheat the thermoblock, then let it cool while I grind, dose, distribute and tamp. I run a quick cooling flush (for like 2 seconds), and it's pretty good for a double shot. Otherwise, I've been getting espresso that's too cool (sour taste). The other shortfall of thermoblocks is their ability to steam a decent load of milk. You can get dry steam from a thermoblock, but not strong steam to whirlpool more than (IME) one drink's worth at a time. Forget making coffee's for a dinner party for six with a thermoblock (unless you plan on spending the entire night in the kitchen pulling shots and steaming milk for one drink at a time). I say this from experience!!!

admin

Matty - depends on the calibration of the bloc; we tested 7 thermobloc and 4x boiler; one of the thermoblocs was consistently delivering water in cup at 84% - too hot! With respect to steaming, again our experience didn't bear out your analysis; if anything, we found with respect to steaming (once you removed their silly 'froth-enhancers') their main fault was wetness of steam. However, the benefit of thermobloc with steaming is the reverse of what you're suggesting - by their very nature, they can keep pumping out steam continuously, effectively until the water tank runs out! -A

Reschsmooth

I will weigh in I have had a Via Vanezia for about 18 months now and for about the last 6 have pulling 'good' espresso and for the last 3 or so have been generating really good microfoam to the point of pouring reasonably good latte art (notwithstanding pouring technique being the main limiter). From a purists' perspective, the process is sub-standard as I pour a shot and then wait a minute before the steam is ready. Steaming enough milk for two drinks takes about 90 seconds or so, so the espresso is sitting there for about 2 and a half minutes before the milk is introduced. Does the coffee taste good? You bet - particularly with freshly [home] roasted beans. Is it technically a perfect coffee? Most likely not. Making coffee for a number of people results in further compromises, but I am able to steam sufficient milk in one go for about 4-6 drinks with decent microfoam. The major compromise is that I pull the shots first meaning that they are cooling for an extended period before the milk is ready. (Do you reckon I should steam the milk to about 100 degrees C to compensate? 😛) The main things I have needed to do to get to this stage is get a decent grinder and non-pressurised filter holder (thanks FC for both of those) and get rid of the intercooled twin-turbo-frother. Patrick

[deleted]

With respect to steaming, again our experience didn't bear out your analysis; if anything, we found with respect to steaming (once you removed their silly 'froth-enhancers') their main fault was wetness of steam. However, the benefit of thermobloc with steaming is the reverse of what you're suggesting - by their very nature, they can keep pumping out steam continuously, effectively until the water tank runs out! -A

In regards to Wetness of steam - yes, at first (when you first switch the pump over to steam) you'll get very wet steam, resulting in watery milk. My practise is to let it steam for about 30-40 seconds, after which you will get drier steam, as the thermoblock gets progressively hotter and hotter (flash steaming the water more effectively). And I never said that thermoblocks can't steam continuously, i'm talking about the strength of the steam - the force at which the steam leaves the nozzle. It's simply not powerful enough to do enough milk for more than one (or, if you're willing to steam for ages, then two) milk drinks worth at a time - effectively that is. Try steaming two or three latte's worth of milk in a bigger jug and you'll see what I mean. It will take a long time, you won't be able to whirlpool the milk effectively enough to combine the milk-bubbles, you will struggle to get a decent amount of foam, and the foam won't be nice, dense, shiny, velvety microfoam. My analysis comes form 18 months of living with a sunbeam cafe crema - with the silly froth enhancer relegated to the third draw from the top (where all the kitchen crap that never gets used lives), and with crema-enhancing baskets replaced with non-pressurised baskets. I've been tinkering with my machine every day for that 18 months, and i'm simply reporting what i've noticed. that 18 months has involved making flat-whites every morning and doppio ristretto's almost every afternoon, as well as a weekly meeting at my place, struggling to make coffees for six people (and taking a very long time to do so), and the occasional dinner party.

Gonzo

Matty, there are quite a few different thermoblock machines made by a few different manufacturers. Depending on the make & model they are controlled to differing degrees, so they dont all display the same characteristics. Just like domestic boiler machines differ individually to eachother due to the same. G.

[deleted]

Gonzo - yeah, for example, i've heard that thermoblocks made by quickmill are pretty good - very stable etc. But for the average chinese made breville/sunbeam/krups(?) aluminium cheapass thermoblocks, i wouldn't be surprised if they all operated pretty similarly. I guess my main point made a few posts above was that 'going on what's currently available'. This super-duper sunbeam isn't out yet, and I haven't seen much better than what's on the shelves at your average myer/dj's. I've also played with a couple of krups's, brevilles and the other sunbeams, and they seem to function the same.

admin

Matty - yes, that's exactly the point - we found a huge variation - between the thermobloc units (and some of the boiler units). Am sure you're right about the Cafe Crema (we didn't do it this time around) but using in-cup temperature as an example, we got Ristretto (in-cup) 71-73 - ie reasonable stability (for a small machine), a little low, temperature-wise; Breville unit 74-78 deg - ie about right (average) temp, but poor stability, one of the deLonghi's at 84/85 deg. ie reasonable stability but way too hot, and the Gaggia Classic (boiler)- consistently 72 deg. - ie brilliant stability, but some would argue, a little low. These are just examples, but the point being, I just don't think you can extrapolate from one machine to all thermoblocs; remember apart from design differences, the critical thing is how they're calibrated. Cheers A PS have just come back from trying out the new Sunbeam 6900. Didn't get to run full range of tests, but beautiful crema & nice tasting coffee!

mattyj

Hey Ash, when you mention all these temps, are you talking celcius, or farenhiet? (sic, i know...) If you're talking celcius, they're all too low - I think you need water more around the 90's (92 - 95), and if you're talking farenhiet (sic...) then it's way too low. And then there's the question - how did you measure the temp?

admin

Deg.C. - we were doing in-cup temp. The most accurate is obviously to measure in the group head where you'd want 92 deg. Celcius. However, given that we couldn't drill holes through the filter basket - we had to give the machines back (& we thought they might notice) we used in-cup temp. as a proxy. The only trick then is to calibrate the drop in temp that you should be getting between the group and the cup. There are several 'suggested' in-cup temps - one expert suggests 74 deg.C; another an 8 deg differential (ie 92-8= 84 deg.) which we felt was too high; the 'official' Italian espresso is approx. 71 deg. in-cup, which we feel is a little low, so we settled on a range of around 74-76 in-cup. -A

Reschsmooth

Hey Matty I am not disagreeing with you in general, although I perhaps seem to have different results steaming a lot of milk with my 'low-grade' machine - I can get whirlpools, good microfoam for latte art, etc, the only problem is that the time taken to achieve this is sometimes measured by calenders rather than stop watches ;D. However, I am not sure if you are intending this or not, but it almost sounds like you are expecting a, say, sub-$600 machine to perform as well as a $2,500 machine, or perhaps criticising these machines for not performing as well as the higher priced machines. As I am sure you understand, there will always be a better mousetrap. I guess this is the problem with this area (coffee fanatacism) in that upgrade fever is a difficult ailment to quash. Not sure if I read it here or another coffee related site, but I saw a comment that read: "Thanks for visiting, sorry about your wallet" Patrick

mattyj

Ash - thanks for clearing that up! Patrick - yeah, i guess my expectations are too high for what a $300 machine can achieve. This probably comes from my frustration that my machine doesn't perform as well as I'd like it to - at least being able to cope with two latte's worth of milk, effectively. It can be done, but like you said, you measure how long it takes with a calendar, not a stopwatch... ...I wil come back to my point though, that generally, thermoblocks (of the three different brands i've used) don't have a whole lot of steam power. I guess that means that if you want a home machine that will be able to cater for a few friends coming over for a coffee, you need to look at spending more money. ... hence the upgrade coming my way in a few months!!! Bring on the Heat-Exchange, E-61, Expobar Leva!!! But then, this is all getting way off topic - have you purchased a machine and grinder yet, Odysseus? How's it all going?

odysseus

How's it going? Ehh. Witing for stock to come in at Retravision. Have only seen the Ristretto at one other place (Myer), and it was $100 there .. I can wait to save myself the money (funny what a mortgage will do to you!). BTW Admin .. shouldn't some of the posts in this thread be moved into a new thread??

liebs

Would really appreciate some advice. About a week ago I went out and purchased a Breville ESP6 after reading an old issue of CHOICE magazine where they said it came equal first for coffee taste compared to machines far more expensive. Bottom line is that I find it makes a very average coffee; often too bitter or even sour. I decided to post my frustrations on a US based coffee forum (coffeegeek.com) where they pretty much bagged the h*ell out of the machine saying it was useless. Some people told me to buy a good grinder which could help, other suggested a minimum of a Gaggia xxxxxx and a grinder. Bottom line is I am thoroughly confused. I have a couple of questions: 1) Is the Sunbeam Ristretto actually a better machine than the Breville? 2) Am I wasting my time with the Breville; regardless of buying grinders etc etc, will I never get a really good espresso out of it? 3) What is the cheapest way for me to achieve my goal of a really good strong, crisp, sweet well balanced espresso? I greatly appreciate any advice. ML

admin

Hi Liebs - we reviewed this machine a couple of years ago - see 'Magazine' Coffee machine review - Winter '03): 'It produced a reasonable crema on the pre-ground espresso, with a reasonable result on the taste test'. What many beginners tend to forget is that you should probably expect to pay as much for a grinder as a new espresso machine (this may be in line with some of the comments you've been getting from CG). You tend to get what you pay for and from memory, it's a pretty basic machine. However, that doesn't mean that if you start with fresh coffee and get the grind right, you shouldn't be able to make a reasonable espresso from it. Yes, I believe that for $100, the Ristretto is actually a better unit, but bottom line is that you should still be able to make a reasonable coffee on it. Hope that helps - as always other comments welcome! -A

mattyj

hey liebs, i've been using a sunbeam cafe crema for about 18 months now, and if the breville is at all similar in any way, then to get good coffee will stretch your machine to it's limit, and it won't last long. I replaced the crema enhancing baskets (i get lots of email about this ... boy do i feel special! Search CoffeeGeek.com if you want to know how.), got myself a good grinder, use more coffee than i should for a shot, and perform a little trick to get it pumping out water hot enough. Basically, cheaper machines like ours won't deliver water hot enough, hence the sour flavours you're tasting. I switch mine onto steam, with the steam arm pointing into a jug, while I'm filling the filter with coffee and tamping. Then I turn off the steam, and flick it over to brew, but without the filter in place. Keep running it on brew until it stops sputtering everywhere (oh yeah, be careful - ultra hot water!). Turn the switch back to the centre, insert the filter handle, put your cup/s under the spouts and brew. Sometimes it will be too hot, other times, not hot enough, and still other times, spot on! The problem is, doing this (using more coffee, grinding finer, tamping harder) really works some some internal seals harder than what they were made for, so now my little sunbeam is leaking water from near the switch while I'm brewing a shot. Nasty. Time to upgrade! EDIT: please do some of your own research on this. There are some excellent articles and forum threads on www.coffeegeek.com, all you need to do is search around in the forums - click on the 'forum' tab, find the search button and type in words like 'pressurised portafilter', 'sunbeam baskets' etc. I simply don't have the time to reply to the many emails I've got on this, explaining why you'd want to replace baskets, and how to go about it etc. In the end, I did this to enhance my home coffee, but only after i realised the problems with so-called 'crema-enhancing' devices. If your coffee is tasting good to you and you're happy with it, it ain't broke, so don't try fixing it. If you're feeling limited and restricted by your machine, then by all means, research away!

leebs

Firstly thanks for the replies to my question on the Breville ESP6. I've decided to put it away for now (sick of bitter/sour shots) My next question is this..... I have a friend who has a spare Sunbeam Cafe Ristretto which he is basically giving away (upgraded some time back) can someone who has this machine , or tasted coffee from one give me an idea of whether it is pretty much the same quality as the Breville or can I expect a better shot due to the boiler? My second question is......what is the name of the cheapest grinder that I should consider. I know people will say spend $150+ but that is just way out of my range. I see the coffee shop near me has a little Gaggia grinder for under $100 - any ideas? And finally (sorry for all the questions) has anyone ever used a Bialetti Brikka? I used to use their regular stovetop unit,but this one is supposed to add a crema. I thought that if i get negative reviews on the Sunbeam i might try the Bialetti combined with a Grinder? Many thanks

mattyj

grab the sunbeam ristretto! I've never heard of the other machine (moka pot? you'll probably get bitter coffee - at least that's been my experience). Anything that says it 'adds crema' sort of sets off alarm bells in my mind. grinders - I've seen the cheaper gaggia's, but never used them. I've used a delonghi kg100 (which I got for $140) for over a year, and it suited nicely for a while - i just worked it too hard! Some hand grinders apparently do a really good job, they just take a bit more effort! My experience with a $30 one from myer was average, but it was a cheaparse version of the better one's like zassenhaus. I'm sure others can recommend a good one!

FreshCoffee2

Hello Leebs. If you check my post which is 4 posts down from the top on page 1 of this thread you will find the Emide Grinder is mentioned. It's made in Germany and will do the job you require. The price is $92.50 plus postage. Regardz, FC. www.cosmorexcoffee.com.au

joe

Sunbeam Ristretto is $59 in the GoodGuys catalogue