Probably well off topic now, but what the heck..... They are what they are what they are, and the good manufacturers are always upgrading the level of components as they become available. Also, while some cafes in our market are doing those kinds of kilos, most arent. The salient points are, that in our market "most" "cafe" owners dont do anything with their machines over long periods and expect their service providers to do their thinking for them. Machines become aged and clapped and some even become cockroach castles. People that own their own are reticent to upgrade because of the capital cost (despite that the poor old things have made them hundreds of thousands of dollars turnover over the period). People whose equipment belongs to the supplier will put up their hand, but the supplier cant help but try to wring out as much as they can through equipment whose capital cost is at the end of the day, coming straight off the bottom of the total value of the coffee turnover for the period. If you change over the equipment at more frequent intervals (for whatever reason), that means more cost has to come off the bottom of the total turnover for the period. Please, no accounting lessons, we all know nuttins for nuttin....you can account for the equipment any way you like in accounting terms, but at the end of the day if a cafe turns over say $40,000.00 dollars product in 2 years, and the cost to the supplier is to write off a 3 group machine, a couple of grinders, a water filtration unit, 6 umbrellas and 6 wind barriers, 30 uniforms composed of polo shirts and aprons, 100 plus cups, mugs, saucers, glasses and countless FREE service call outs to staff that dont know how to adjust a grinder (and are sabotaging their own product as well as the suppliers) plus to legit service calls, you can take all of that straight off the 40 thou, divide it by the number of kilos used for the period, and see what profit you are really making PER KILO per client. Its a balancing act, and too many beople think the apparent cost of a kilo of coffee is zero (ie 100% profit), but after the input cost plus all on costs, the profit made is propping up an entire service/supply business. And of course while its fashionable in discussions in forums to preach that all cafes do or should own their own equipment, the reality is most of them dont. Specifying "new kid on the block" equipment ups the stakes considerably for suppliers that are expected to supply at their cost, diminishing margins considerably. There are always 2 sides to the story, and it has not much to do with coffee quality in the first instance....its always about money and as stated earlier, its business. Education is the key. Ok got a bit off track there.