saturation or not

derrilex

mycuppa wrote:

Yes, there are many "L-Plate" roasters out there

:rofl: Love it Jeff. Thats me to a Tee

derrilex

cosmic_couple22 wrote:

So if saturation exists is it up to the industry to drive for better controls? things like attend a 1 day course and you get a piece of paper to say your a trained barrista is surely a problem that needs addressing (isn't it)

Agree but until Aussies actually understand what they are drinking is vomit there is no recourse. I'm probably one of the harshest critics of bad coffee on here and I think that every bad coffee joint should be burnt to the ground, witch hunt style but, its a free market with zero standards that services a almost entirely ignorant customer base. No wonder people get into it and no wonder the crap ones survive. ( to clarify, when I say zero standards I mean to what is eventually served to the customer ) One more thing, being a "trained Barista" doesn't mean shit. I think of lot of them get caught up in the numbers game and the "rules" of making good coffee. Willingness to experiment, getting touchy feely with the product and having some idea of the mechanics of what you are dealing with will win every time. I'm betting that every person I know on this forum can produce far superior results than 90 % of cafes with "trained Baristas".

galumay

derrilex wrote:

I'm betting that every person I know on this forum can produce far superior results than 90 % of cafes with "trained Baristas".

I think you are very wrong, probably more like 98%.

derrilex

Sorry G, that was a typo :rofl:

Ol_Grumpy

Whether you like it or not, coffee is a 'commodity' item... I'm not in this industry (work wise) but I would hazard a guess that the very first question the *majority* of Cafe' owners will ask is, "How much a kilo is your stuff?" It's a price based commodity in the wider market... Not dissimilar to milk, pizza, bread, tradesman for that matter (me), fish & chips, fast- food, and on and on and on... Success in this market or any other commodity based market you care to name is so much more about your Marketing than your product. People who talk product need a slap across the face to wake them up... There is no debate here.... I've said it before but obviously I need to say it again... McDonalds do not make the best product do they? No!.... But they have extraordinary marketing and look at their success... It's not too shabby is it? Now Hungry Jacks will tell you "Our burgers are better..." I say, "Idiots"... But You could argue Hungry Jacks have enjoyed a reasonable level of success... And they have, but they remain in the Golden Arches shadow... It's been proven before that one restaurant in an isolated location will not have the success of the same restaurant in a group of restaurants... I haven't explained it well but I'm saying all the restaurants in a food court do better grouped together in one location than all being individually scattered through a shopping centre... Saturation is not necessarily a bad thing....

Ol_Grumpy

I really know nothing about the business behind the Londinium coffee machine other than what we can all read on the website, forums, etc... Reading on and between the lines when clues are 'dropped' I see a business whose core is roasting and selling beans- worldwide... And worldwide is a big clue to the key- stone of their success... The Londinium has been developed as a complimentary 'side' or perhaps second main line, depending on your interpretation. I believe the business was successful before the L1... by promoting selected complimentary machines... But now the scope for future profit and growth has grown exponentially... Smart guy, I'm very interested to see if he recognises and builds to his potential.... My guess is that he doesn't fully appreciate the platform he is standing on- but I'll be happily proven wrong... You only have to follow the CS monthly sales or BG or peruse the threads like "What are you roasting this week' to glean there is an almost insatiable desire to find the next 'God-shot producing bean'... Anyway, there is a tremendous scope for (where the real profit is) ongoing sales to existing customers... How? Firstly a newsletter, competitions, Newly discovered 'bean' announcements and on and on it goes.... The key is engaging your audience and informing and entertaining them... That right there is where the 'money' is.... That's money spelt $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! BTW- Do you recognise that Andy @ CS has followed this model exactly- the CS forum is his vehicle for capturing, engaging, entertaining and ultimately selling to his audience.... It's right under your noses and I bet you didn't recognise it... Did you? but I guess it's glaringly obvious now? And by the way if you've followed Andy's growth.... It works too! Edit: Just for the record- I have never met Andy, aside from occasional conversation on his forum and my comments are all my own opinion, based solely on observation. Edit 2: Note to Mods... I'm a teeny bit worried I have crossed a 'line' here by mentioning specific forums, names, etc. my comments are praise not criticism... But still, if I have crossed a line pls let me know and I'll modify posts accordingly :-)

Ol_Grumpy

Oh C'mon- surely someone's got something to Add... Question... Refute.... .????

WotB

What once was a friendly community of sharing and caring is now a commercialised empire. True to its moniker...

Kelsey

No lines crossed OG - it's not like we don't know other forums exist or how they're supported financially! No-one is responding, in part I suspect because we've had enough drama of late that no-one feels like inciting a turf war. We don't have the same operation and that's both limiting and freeing in ways that I won't elaborate.

Ronin

Ol Grumpy wrote:

McDonalds do not make the best product do they? No!.... But they have extraordinary marketing and look at their success... It's not too shabby is it?

True, McDonalds make an average burger, but they do it well and consistantly. Its been said to me by a cafe owner that while he won't drink it, he has Merlo in his cafe because its a consistent product that people know. Remember that bad is still a form of consistent :stir Curiously McDonalds main business when it started was not burgers, but real estate. The burgers were a way to pay for the premium land for capital gain. Every store use to be positioned on a major road on the side of the road that exits the city. Most still are but not always now.

Ol_Grumpy

Yes, we'll it's good to see some differing opinions... My comments were all relating to and in the context of expanding on the thread topic... Saturation or Not? I can't see a turf-war in my comments- but I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. I understand I have strong opinions, which can polarise people, or not... However at no time do I set out to offend or criticise... I certainly will challenge conventions if I believe it appropriate... Which I am want to do.... Remember, in the Jungle, the Tiger starves last.... I'd like to hear from Chester?

FreshCoffee2

Ronin wrote:

....Its been said to me by a cafe owner that while he won't drink it, he has..........in his cafe because its a consistent product that people know.......

I read this to mean, that the brand is apparently beneath *the cafe owners personal standard* (whatever the hell that is) but that he recognizes it has been well roasted and blended and has good market recognition. What an entirely inappropriate, unprofessional, unintelligent, naive, indiscreet, dumb, stoopid thing for he/she to say. The word SNOB comes to mind, in its most derogatory form. The term A hole also comes to mind. I'll even bet they look after him really really well in his business and therefore in his hip pocket nerve, for him to turn around and open his derogatory trap and say that kind of scheit.

Ronin

Not quite my understanding FC While not to his taste he is selling a lot of coffee because of brand awareness. Money in the bank for him. Purely a business decision. Perhaps FC you should keep opinions like that to yourself.. Completely unnecessary. It comes across like you are jaded by people making money in a way they choose to, but not how you would. In case you didn't know, coffee is a subjective product and we are all entitled to our own decision on flavour of personal choice. There is a place for all coffee, not in mine or yours, but someone's

FreshCoffee2

Ol Grumpy wrote:

Oh C'mon- surely someone's got something to Add... Question... Refute.... .????

These discussions are nothing more than academic musings even if interesting. They take up a lot of time, and sometimes they can get very close to being publicly inappropriate. What could be an interesting discussion over a beer, may not be quiote so appropriate when written up in a public forum for all to see. Individuals have to decide when its time to stop participating in any particular topic. Hope that helps.

FreshCoffee2

Ronin wrote:

Not quite my understanding FC While not to his taste he is selling a lot of coffee because of brand awareness. Money in the bank for him. Purely a business decision. Perhaps FC you should keep opinions like that to yourself.. Completely unnecessary. It comes across like you are jaded by people making money in a way they choose to, but not how you would. In case you didn't know, coffee is a subjective product and we are all untitled to our own decision on flavour of personal choice.

I disagree entirely (and you apparently didnt understand my motivation in response). Someone apparently said something they probably shouldnt have said (to you), exemplified by the fact that it ended up in a forum where it makes it look like there is something wrong with someone's brand or that someone percecives that the brand is not "up there".... If I was merlo, I would be in here talking to the site admins about striking your post. EDIT and addition. I sincerely hope that what the cafe owner really meant, was that he wouldnt normally drink the blend he uses for work, rather than that he wouldnt drink the *brand* in toto.....

UNM

OG - I don't agree with all of your earlier post, but yes, it is food for thought. I (and many others) have long been aware of the CS business model and approach, that was no surprise. I don't believe Andy's historical model is, ultimately, the best way to grow his business. It is one way and does have some good aspects, but is not the only way and I think there are areas he could do better. All businesses change over time and I am sure his will as circumstances change. I know other roasters that started from nowhere and churn through 5 tonne+ in a week and do not run their business in that way - they have found other ways to be successful (and want that kind of volume). There are many ways to skin a cat. Business success is not necessarily about growth, higher profits or market share - it is having the business that you chose and meeting the targets you aspire to. Some realise this early, others never do and get caught up in other peoples definitions of success rather than their own. Clearly a business that loses money consistently is less likely to be deemed a success. As to Ronin's comment about McDonalds making an average burger, they must have improved in the last decade since I last visited. Sorry, but 'the burgers are better' at Grill'd.

Ol_Grumpy

Fresh Coffee wrote:

These discussions are nothing more than academic musings even if interesting. They take up a lot of time, and sometimes they can get very close to being publicly inappropriate. What could be an interesting discussion over a beer, may not be quiote so appropriate when written up in a public forum for all to see.

Hmmmm, having now seen and experienced the result of my previous 'challenge'... Well let's just say, "I better understand".... Your comments above.... Thanks!

Brett_H

Merlos have one out of their way to accommodate me on a number of occasions with embarrassingly small orders and one comparatively low cost grinder purchase issue. In every instance I was made to feel like my satisfaction mattered and they appreciated my custom! They represent everything that is right about the roasting/cafe scene in my opinion and they are now, after many years of consistently excellent product, they are now big enough to polarise opinion so it seems. Bully for them! I hope that the cafe owner's comments were taken out of context! OG, you posts are interesting, relatively un-scandalous and not requiring comment on the whole. Kind of like a nice bottle of red!

Kelsey

I can also attest that I've enjoyed Merlo most of the occasions I've had to try it and have enjoyed their roasts also. That said BH, I think you were present at the west end cafe when I ordered what turned out to be a fairly dubious espresso.....

Brett_H

Absolutely, but that is a very infrequent experience and in fairness it was an Aussie bean that we were sampling. I bought 500g of it and no extraction method made it suit my tastes. One of the guys in the Opera Chorus however loved it and despaired when their bean of the month ended. Each to their own I suppose: Which leads me back on topic. Yes the market is over-saturated but with such eclectic tastes out there there will always be room for one more gold-rush miner and there'll always be one to wax lyrical and many to collect the permit fees!