Quamar Q50P/doserless habits!

Simon

Hey Paul, ah okay, I guess I'm more thinking in terms of remembering grind setting for particular beans. I usually have at least two different sorts of beans on the go at a time, and am going to alternate daily now (rather than with every shot like I used to XD). So just figuring out the amount of clicks between numbers, seems to change from 4 to 5 every couple of numbers or so (so that I can record grind level 1.4, 2.2 etc). The shots didn't come out great tastewise... so much experimenting to do. Have ordered 1kg of the roasted Harrar, to take the variable of my roast out of it, so gonna really work on distribution/technique. The grinder (even though secondhand) might just need a bit of time getting used to grinding again 🙂

K_Bean_Coffee

Simon wrote:

...I guess I'm more thinking in terms of remembering grind setting for particular beans.

Hi Simon, I know what you're getting at but every time you change beans you need to dial in your grinder again. Follow my espresso steps here: K Bean - 20 Steps

Simon

Ah ok right, but surely in recording the setting a certain bean was on (with a set dose) and using that setting again later it should be a repeatable result (obviously with age etc the grind setting will need to change, but I'm talking not that long until the bean is used again), but hmmm I may have to ponder that... And yeah with a bean change there are old stray grinds from the other bean, but I make sure to fully clean/sweep/vacuum it all out, and purge with the new bean when I use it. Unless it's sort of too drastic a change to constantly swap beans from day to day.... that's got me thinking of maybe sticking with only the one bean batch for a couple of weeks instead of alternating now... I shall experiment anyways haha thanks for that!

Simon

Ok another update, tried some other beans today, pulled 6 shots, here's how they went: (the way I record results is e.g. 23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s means: I dosed 23 grams coffee, on grind setting 1.5 on the quamar, yielded 33.3g espresso in 30 seconds) SHOT 1 #Distribution technique: dose 3/4 full, collapse, dose rest, collapse, tamp. -23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s (dead spot in centre most of the time, but decent pour otherwise... tasted nice. Will change distribution due to dead spot) SHOT 2 #Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, vertical collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, tamp. Ground one notch coarser: -23g gr2.1 y51g 25s (pour was a bit more central, but strange pour.. aLOT faster... a little sour, okayish flavour..) SHOT 3 #try same again to eliminate chance of this being due to old grinds (I always purge a few grams anyway) -23g gr2.1 y54.6g 23s (roughly same as last shot.. bit flat in flavour.. piccolo was really nice..) SHOT 4 #sweep chute when changing grind... back to original grind (one notch finer) to see what happens... *-23g gr1.5 y50g 30s (bit of a dead spot in centre of the pour.. okayish still.. nice flavours. Pretty big variation volume-wise between this and last shot...) SHOT 5 #strange that shot 1 and shot 4 had these VERY different results... maybe the first shot was always going to be dodgy as it needed to get used to it... grind one notch finer #Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, horizontal taps to level out, collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, collapse, tamp. -23g gr1.4 y27g 34s (interesting... maybe because the grounds were more uniform and level in the basket because of the distribution technique that's why it slowed right down... OR the steps are just too large on the grinder???) SHOT 6 #grind one notch coarser -23g gr1.5 y41g 30s (dead spot at right hand side.. I dosed a bit too much so maybe I slightly compressed that side a little bit when swiping off?? It looked more flattened so to speak... So..... haha.... at this point I was a bit frustrated... I don't know what's going on... a few theories: 1) The first shot may always be a bit dodgy perhaps, need to purge more before the very first shot maybe? 2) Just need to work on distribution and a level even density of coffee within the basket. 3) The steps on the Quamar are too large. The coffee I was using for my other post was Campos Superior Blend, and today's was a Columbian bean from Campos, freshly roasted as well on the 25th July (so 8 days postroast) so I wouldn't think it's the coffee that's the issue... Any help in figuring all this out would be super duper appreciated.... soooo puzzled and scratching the noggin at the moment! Thanks so much for any assistance at all guys

K_Bean_Coffee

Keep practicing Simon. Step size isn't a problem at all so you can definitely rule that one out. Just keep practicing. It's takes time 😉 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Simon

K_Bean_Coffee wrote:

Keep practicing Simon. Step size isn't a problem at all so you can definitely rule that one out. Just keep practicing. It's takes time 😉 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks so much Paul appreciate that, and that's good to know. I posted this on the other forum and definitely am changing too many variables at once, and not sticking with the one grind setting long enough. Just built up and I got super frustrated, but I know that I'll just have to take my time with it and get some consistency BEFORE changing any variables (grind setting, distribution method etc). And only then make very slight adjustments to know how this grinder works best. Using one grinder for 7 years or so of course there'll be a learning curve with the new one! Thanks 🙂

K_Bean_Coffee

We're all always learning Simon. That's what makes coffee a hobby and not just a drink I reckon 🙂 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Simon

True that 🙂, I still have people who screw up their face when I mention my love for specialty coffee, roasting and brewing haha. I've skipped coffee for today to detox myself (had FAR too many coffees yesterday and was quite nauseous haha..), so back into it tomorrow, see how we go! [emoji110]

Simon

Pulled some shots today, they came out mostly ok, a bit fast. I was actually low on beans so couldn't really fill the hopper, so tried my hand at single dosing (trying to see what results I get compared to hopper filling-dosing) I purged with 10 beans or so first and swept it all out, and single dosing definitely produced a much faster pour (finally experienced it myself, I won't ask that question anymore haha). I kept everything the same for all three shots (dose, grind setting and distribution method), except the last shot I tried nutating: -23g gr1.4 y54.5g 23s (strange fast pour, bit sour) #same everything -23g gr1.4 y49g 23s (similar pour, quite nice flavours in milk) #change distribution: same everything else, but added in nutation -23g gr1.4 y42g 27s Nutating definitely slowed the pour right down and seemed to pour much better. So lesson here for myself: experiment with keeping everything consistent and change only one variable very slightly (either dose, grind setting, or distribution method). Also, single dosing seemed to produce a much faster pour when compared to dosing from a hopper full of beans. [emoji12]

K_Bean_Coffee

Simon wrote:

...So lesson here for myself: experiment with keeping everything consistent and change only one variable very slightly...

Correct re changing only one variable Simon 🙂 My suggestion is to make that variable the grinder setting. Extract from my training page: "I think of the grinder hopper collar as the steering wheel. By following my steps you will minimise variables so that you can "drive" your espresso machine by changing the grinder setting. Making your espresso Without a consistent workflow is like driving your car with with a jelly steering wheel." Cheers 🙂 Paul K Bean - Coffee Workflow

Simon

Hahaha well put 😛, and yeah good idea sticking to changing grind. When you change grind setting with the Quamar, do you purge a certain amount/for a certain time to get 'old-grind' grounds out, or do just truck on through without purging and the new grind change pour will happen when it happens? Am just trying to gather a consistent routine/workflow that a) Gets exceptional and consistent results (obviously) b) Allows for easy tweaking to be made when necessary c) Eliminates old grinds from the grinder (related to a) and b) hehe) Am considering just a quick sweep of the chute (I've removed that metal guard on the inside of the dosing chamber, didn't seem to do anything) then purge with the new grind. Just unsure on purge time needed (without being wasteful...)

askthecoffeeguy

Simon wrote:

Ok another update, tried some other beans today, pulled 6 shots, here's how they went: (the way I record results is e.g. 23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s means: I dosed 23 grams coffee, on grind setting 1.5 on the quamar, yielded 33.3g espresso in 30 seconds) SHOT 1 #Distribution technique: dose 3/4 full, collapse, dose rest, collapse, tamp. -23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s (dead spot in centre most of the time, but decent pour otherwise... tasted nice. Will change distribution due to dead spot) SHOT 2 #Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, vertical collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, tamp. Ground one notch coarser: -23g gr2.1 y51g 25s (pour was a bit more central, but strange pour.. aLOT faster... a little sour, okayish flavour..) SHOT 3 #try same again to eliminate chance of this being due to old grinds (I always purge a few grams anyway) -23g gr2.1 y54.6g 23s (roughly same as last shot.. bit flat in flavour.. piccolo was really nice..) SHOT 4 #sweep chute when changing grind... back to original grind (one notch finer) to see what happens... *-23g gr1.5 y50g 30s (bit of a dead spot in centre of the pour.. okayish still.. nice flavours. Pretty big variation volume-wise between this and last shot...) SHOT 5 #strange that shot 1 and shot 4 had these VERY different results... maybe the first shot was always going to be dodgy as it needed to get used to it... grind one notch finer #Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, horizontal taps to level out, collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, collapse, tamp. -23g gr1.4 y27g 34s (interesting... maybe because the grounds were more uniform and level in the basket because of the distribution technique that's why it slowed right down... OR the steps are just too large on the grinder???) SHOT 6 #grind one notch coarser -23g gr1.5 y41g 30s (dead spot at right hand side.. I dosed a bit too much so maybe I slightly compressed that side a little bit when swiping off?? It looked more flattened so to speak... So..... haha.... at this point I was a bit frustrated... I don't know what's going on... a few theories: 1) The first shot may always be a bit dodgy perhaps, need to purge more before the very first shot maybe? 2) Just need to work on distribution and a level even density of coffee within the basket. 3) The steps on the Quamar are too large. The coffee I was using for my other post was Campos Superior Blend, and today's was a Columbian bean from Campos, freshly roasted as well on the 25th July (so 8 days postroast) so I wouldn't think it's the coffee that's the issue... Any help in figuring all this out would be super duper appreciated.... soooo puzzled and scratching the noggin at the moment! Thanks so much for any assistance at all guys

In my7 experience columbian beans can take 10 days or more post roast before they flip from sour to sweetness so it could be that the flavours are a bit dull as the bean itself is still vigorously degassing, not sure of the exact process but I imagine it as the degassing process brings the oils to the surface of the bean and this is where the majority of the favour is coming from for the record i pretty much use the shot one method that you referred to exclusively, and then make adjustments to the grind as required, that way you can potentially rule out technique as a causal influence in shot quality - which leaves roast profile, particle grind size, dosage, and days post roast, along with individual bean variations including processing methods all as potential factors impacting upon shot quality! Of course machine specifications and pairing with grinder goes along way to ironing out potential problems as well... Best, P

Simon

Ah ok thanks for that, they were about 8 days post-roast at the time, but definitely will keep that in mind. Ah right, do you find that distribution method to cause a dead spot in any of your pours though? That's what I kept getting, and I'm thinking it's because when the grinds pile up in the middle, then I vertical collapse, it semicompresses the grounds moreso in the middle. Then when I finish the full dose and collapse again, it just emphasises the denser middle part of the puck... Have you found this at all, or do you get a nice even extraction out of the basket? Unless I'm doing it wrong haha.. I used a naked for all these so I could see the dead spot clearly.. And the dead spot seemed to go away when I introduced the horizontal tapping to move the grounds around first... Yeah I want to just have one solid distribution method that will get the basket nice and even, so I can eliminate that as a variable. May have to go back to nutation or so like I used to if this doesn't work... Thanks Patrick 🙂

mycuppa

Simon, Coffee can take more than 8 days to stabilise. There are many factors at play but beyond the origin and varietal it's the roast profile, roast platform and the period between roast and pack that affects this mostly. Every roaster does things differently, so there are no general rules. If your coffee was roasted lighter, then day 8 would most likely be in a volatile zone where the beans are going through there last set of changes before reaching a more stable state. Sometimes, this zone (days from roasting) can be the most frustrating and then the next day or so the beans are a lot easier and predictable to work with. The difference can be dramatic. If you are chucking donuts, then coarse your grind, distribute more carefully (you are already onto a winner there), up dose and tamp a bit harder. Some machines also have a tendency promote donuts more so that other gear due to the dispersement, shower screen, head room geometry and a few other techie reasons, so it's not the end of the world and just a case of working around this symptom by testing various dose depths.

Simon

Wow, thanks for that mycuppa that was very helpful! Yes I've noticed the dramatic difference between a few days of resting haha, it's as though the coffee after it's roasted has a bad night's sleep every night, and when you try wake it up it's like "NO I need just a bit more sleep!" XD Yeah definitely looking at distribution more. With the new grinder because of the push button, it does amount to all the coffee being dropped into the middle of the basket (as it's hard to move the portafilter around to dose evenly). One way around this is what i wrote, by stopping to horizontal tap, but another way is I'm gonna tape down the push button and use the on/off switch instead. A little mod but it'll allow me to move the portafilter around a bit while its grinding and dose more evenly. Chuck in a collapse halfway through and a potential nutation at the end, I think that'll be my standard 😉 I have a full kilo of Ethiopian Harrar Longberry beans I'm gonna crack open on Wednesday to play with. It'll be 7 days post-roast, so we'll see if it plays nicely, and what results will cometh 🙂. Appreciate the help muchly! [emoji106] Keep em coming y'all if inclined [emoji120]

K_Bean_Coffee

Ahhhh. Ethiopian Harrar is a personal fave 🙂 Enjoy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Simon

Yeah delicious that one 🙂 Okay so an update for those tuning in [emoji14] (sorry.. I feel like I've been posting an insane amount, it's only because I've been quite unwell of late and have had alot of time off work, so being stuck here have gone a bit insane, hope that's okay [emoji14] ) I'll try to not make this an essay post [emoji14] Whipped out the Harrar beans 7 days post-roast, and pulled 8 shots. This time I really mainly focused on changing the grind as the only variable (the first shot i changed from 20g to 22g only because 20g was too shallow in the basket). Here's how they went: Distribution remained the same: I taped the push switch down, distributed evenly whilst grinding, 3/4 way collapse, horizontal taps to level, collapse, straight tamp. -20g gr1.4 y16g 40s (great pour, obviously very slow haha, but thick and delicious) -22g gr2.3 y42g 20s (horrendous pour) -22g gr2.3 y42.5g 20s (less spurts, more central pour) -22g gr2.2 y42g 24s (pretty good pour) -22g gr2.2 y42.3g 23s (nice pour, few spurts) -22g gr2.1 y34g 30s -22g gr2.1 y42g 28s (little harshness) -22g gr2.1 y37g 28s All in all a great session, it seems a grind change equals about 4 seconds difference in pour (am not sure what happened with the last shot though which went a bit slower...) I guess each grind setting needs a little time before it sets in. But much happier with this result 🙂 (Also measured total wastage by the end of the session, ended up wasting 59g all up, which makes sense due to grind changes and purging)

Brett_H

Great Stuff Simon! One hopes you didn't drink all 8 shots.... ???

Simon

Haha thanks Brett! Errrrmm..... maaaybe... haha. Well technically they were 8 doubles, so that's 16 shots of coffee, BUT I drank only half of each beverage mostly, and chucked the rest into a cup to put in the fridge (potential iced coffees!), so technically 8 were drunk... :S [emoji33] [emoji12]

Simon

Another session (I feel like this is a journal now haha...) DAY 8 POST-ROAST #distribute evenly whilst grinding, 3/4 way collapse, little horizontal taps, *adding stockfleth, collapse, straight tamp -22g gr2.1 y29g 30s (great pour, nice, a little harsh tasting) -22g gr2.1 y36.6g 30s (pretty good pour, nicer) -22g gr2.1 y32.7g 30s (little spurts, pretty good pour otherwise) #Go a bit coarser: -22g gr2.2 y40g 25s (brighter, much nicer) -22g gr2.2 y44.5g 23s (went to a nice central pour, then spurts! ??? Still quite nice) #add nutation to slow down pour and hopefully get rid of channelling spurts... -latte 22g gr2.2 y50.6g 25s (??????? Pour was a little weird and fast, few spurts... Latte was quite nice though.. only a little bitterness present) A little frustrated at the strange results.. the thing is I kept everything the same. Am pretty fastidious with keeping technique EXACTLY the same.. I only added nutation because there was clearly some channelling with the spurts that were showing, but I have NO idea why it was a faster pour after nutation... nutation always slows down shots significantly from my experience! The Harrar beans are 8 days post-roast, so perhaps it still hasn't quite stabilised fully? I'm surely surely hoping this is the case... Will try again on day 10 or 11 perhaps.... Any thoughts are much appreciated..