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Author Topic: EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations  (Read 29272 times)

QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #25 on: 13/03/2014, 12:31 PM »
Dammed interesting... Am off to chat to some one that may be able to explain...

Did your simple test...

Simple test :
Quote
Grab 2 cups, one with cold water and one with boiled water
Place Steam Wand into cup with cold water and operate Steam Wand until Gauge hits 65degs...then,
Place Steam Wand into cup with boiled water..note the Gauge is back to minimum reading (even though the water was boiled recently)
Operate the Steam Wand and by the time the Gauge hits 65degs...the Water in the cup is boiling over the edge

Found the same...

Simple test :
Grab 2 cups, one with cold water and one with cold water
Place Steam Wand into cup with cold water and operate Steam Wand until Gauge hits 65degs...then,
Feel probe and sensor = hot
Place Steam Wand into cup with Cold..note the Gauge is back to minimum reading ???
Operate the Steam Wand and it is interesting as the gauge does start higher and then the rate of change slows down ?

The Gauge also only becomes active once the switch is engaged, so I will look at  how it behaves with the steam heater block disabled  / steam path directed to another port so as to separate the sensor...

My gut feel is that there is something interesting going on and not just a timer as I could force all sorts of times by using room temp Vs ice cold...   But if I used hot water or just of boiling the system did not behave as expected at all.   I is confused  :tearhair:  :head:

Honest_Gaza

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #26 on: 13/03/2014, 01:48 PM »
...and Sunbeam marketing is telling some Porky Pies
Sunbeam EM7000 (replaced EM6910 after 5 Years use...but is now the 3rd EM7000 Machine)
Sunbeam EM6910 (replaced faulty EM6900)
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Brett H

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #27 on: 13/03/2014, 04:16 PM »
Stop press... You heard it first here on Crema. 

Of course my gut tells me there's a good explanation for the discrepancy.
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QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #28 on: 14/03/2014, 01:31 AM »
Stop press... You heard it first here on Crema. 

Of course my gut tells me there's a good explanation for the discrepancy.

Been trying to think of one, but unable to think one up as yet...

Only thing I can think is that some how the electronics is set to auto tare (if you know what I mean).  Thus an accurate temp if the probe is at room temp at the start...

Thus if you start with something hot and or the probe is hot; then it runs as if that was the expected start point and thus a critical offset is applied... 

And that is about the best I can come up with.... 

Have tried using ice slush and interesting....

Will run another test and also use a separate thermometer to cross check.  If I see what I think, then they have out smarted themselves; with all good intentions  :pan 


UNM

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #29 on: 14/03/2014, 07:27 AM »
Smoothing factor?
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conikal

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #30 on: 14/03/2014, 09:12 AM »
Smoothing factor?
??? WOW ! Do you mean they have an electronic correction circuit to automatically  control the size of the bubbles in order to give the ideal Smooth micro foam ?. ! :doh:
 Dang ! ..thats clever ! :stir

QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #31 on: 14/03/2014, 05:22 PM »
Not a timer...

Disconnected the Steam heating block and temp came up to about  where I thought and then stayed there.

Even after some time...  Then turned off and tried again; same result.

Added hot / boiling water and again it came up to the temp I expected but took ages to get there... After about 30 - 40 sec it was only at 65 and took some time to get up where I expected.

(Thus if one was to be also steaming the temp read out would never catch up - As found by the org poster)

From what I can see / tell,  the temp cct is very slow to respond, and I mean SLOW.

It is also switched in and out and thus only works when the steam switch is activated...  Do not think there are extra wires (switched via software) but if one could have the temp gauge on all the time - it would show a real time display; all be it a tad slow with response.

Honest_Gaza

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #32 on: 20/03/2014, 09:06 PM »
Any further progress QM ?

Seems Sunbeam a charging a premium for a feature that doesn't really do what it is advertised to do, and that is...

"display the temperature of the milk to achieve the desired temperature every time"
Sunbeam EM7000 (replaced EM6910 after 5 Years use...but is now the 3rd EM7000 Machine)
Sunbeam EM6910 (replaced faulty EM6900)
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QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #33 on: 20/03/2014, 10:03 PM »
Any further progress QM ?

Seems Sunbeam a charging a premium for a feature that doesn't really do what it is advertised to do, and that is...

"display the temperature of the milk to achieve the desired temperature every time"

It does as claimed above; if you start with cold milk...

If your using room temp or above, then the display laggs and if you stopped at say 50 and waited a while it would clime to the actual temp.

On cross checking with my 2 digital units; the one I have is accurate...   

That being said I would be stopping at 55 and the milk temp would still be climbing and but time of using be actually at 60.....   This is the same for many other temp probes, as have seen people stop steaming at 60 or 65 yet if they stopped and waited a while they would see the gauge keep rising at least another 5 ...  Disclaimer: depends on the quality and accuracy of the temp probe.

Honest_Gaza

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #34 on: 25/03/2014, 07:44 PM »
It does as claimed above; if you start with cold milk...

But that means they would have to make the assumption that we don't reheat milk at some stage for successive coffees ?

Sunbeam EM7000 (replaced EM6910 after 5 Years use...but is now the 3rd EM7000 Machine)
Sunbeam EM6910 (replaced faulty EM6900)
Breville Smart Grinder Pro

conikal

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #35 on: 26/03/2014, 12:01 PM »
But that means they would have to make the assumption that we don't reheat milk at some stage for successive coffees ?
  Naahh ! .. I dont think SB are smart enough to build something that prevents you making crap coffee !  :laugh:

Journeyman

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #36 on: 02/06/2014, 05:37 PM »
I've got an EM7000 and was aware of the issue re the temps so I use my clip-on thermo along with the gauge. Or I did for the first month or so - now I don't need to.

What I noticed is the clip-on lags behind the built-in by about 5
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Brett H

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #37 on: 02/06/2014, 08:40 PM »
I've got an EM7000 and was aware of the issue re the temps so I use my clip-on thermo along with the gauge. Or I did for the first month or so - now I don't need to.

What I noticed is the clip-on lags behind the built-in by about 5
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QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #38 on: 04/06/2014, 12:48 AM »
Journeyman

Welcome...  Must get the 7000 up and running again.

The milk thing is a minor point and once you know your machine it is a non event; as you have suggested.

It is a thermocouple and is reasonably well insulated, but I think they may have added a delay in the cct  to compensate for the different ways people steam / froth / scald their milk...

I am only aware of one ongoing problem with the EM7000 and that is to do with the steam switch/valve.  So if it ever plays up drop me a PM.

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Journeyman

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« Reply #39 on: 04/06/2014, 10:28 AM »

So far I've only read of one issue with the steam on the 7000 (apart from the thermo issue) and it sounds like the one the EM6910 had - steam weakens and then stops.

In my instance, and that of a few others who read what I tried, it came down to the Sunbeam advice in the manual to never put cleaner through the steam system. It seemed strange to me because the description for both water and steam systems is the same, stainless-lined thermoblocks and the tubes are the same inside.

I was getting reasonable steam when I got my 6910 but after a while it was taking longer to start steaming. So I ran Cino Cleano (recommended by local roaster) through the steam path and it improved a bit. Then about the 3rd time I did it, I inadvertently left it running for maybe 15 minutes. I came back inside to a coughing and spluttering steam wand then it suddenly got REALLY loud and strong. When I emptied the container I had under it, there was some dirty brown muck in the water.

Since that time the steam has been great (for a 6910 - the 7000 is even betterer :D) and running cleaner through the wand has become part of the ritual.

I may be preaching to the choir on this next bit... :D

I think it blocks up because of another recommendation from SB in their manual - leaving the wand in the milk until the steam stops. In a physics sense, steam is expanded water and the pump puts it under pressure, so when it stops the liquid outside the tip has a partial vacuum to fill and milk goes up the tip. Over time this clogs the system I think.

In the barista course I did I was taught to remove the wand from the milk before the end of the steaming; with a little practice it becomes easy to know when to do it and if you take the jug away at the angle of the wand there is little chance of splash or bubble.

And there's a side issue of crap they put in the water that might get sent through the steam pipes. There is no reason I can think of why the steam system would NOT have similar issues to the water system so regular cleaning should be recommended.

If there is something else that happens with the steam, please let me know; I prefer to have possible failure parts on hand for fixes; saves stress to the missus when I don't get my coffee. :D
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QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #40 on: 04/06/2014, 11:46 AM »
The issue with cleaner in the older systems is that at full temp the chemicals that are given off are not good for you.

Thus to assist with RISK management and SB not getting into courts and a massive payout; the short answer is don't run cleaner via the steam wand.

If you do the decal on the EM7000 I understand the Steam temp, no longer goes to full temp.

That being said the steam switch valve has been getting stiff as the lube gets removed... There is a special Dow Corning hi temp valve lube that you can use.  It is also used by the better service agents when doing Lever systems- search for Orphan Espresso they have small packets of it. But sure you can get some here.


Journeyman

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« Reply #41 on: 04/06/2014, 12:49 PM »
*grins* I don't normally stand in the steam cloud, and while I understand the political correctness idiocy of warnings etc. I think something is drastically wrong when we have to warn people not to do stupid things. :D

Cleaning my steam path in the 6910 was the best thing I did with it - average milk suddenly became easy-to-make good milk.

All the water into my 6910 since and my 7000 is reverse osmosis water so I'm not particularly concerned about descales etc. I do the cleaning cycle every couple of weeks with no additive at all - including a 5 - 10 minute steam run. So far, so good. :D

I'll get hold of some of the valve lube. Is Dow COrning the only maker or might there be other brands available?

(sort of 'on-topic' given it's to correct an EM7000 possible fault. :)
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SB EM7000 (nee 6910) EM0480 x 2

QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #42 on: 04/06/2014, 02:16 PM »
Dow COrning as best I know... Just check out OE web site

Journeyman

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #43 on: 04/06/2014, 02:54 PM »
re: Valve lube - @ $3 it's a bargain worth having in the drawer. A report from Perth coffee servicers suggested the major repair issue with EM7000's has been replacing steam knobs - I thought at the time maybe they were flimsy but mine are pretty solid units so now I wonder if the stiffness problem causes people to apply more & more force until they break them?

re: temp-sensing wand... another point is the difference in jug size. It has to be something other than a simple timer because a 1L jug heats slower than a 650ml which heats slower than a 300ml.
Never doubt there is Truth but doubt that you have it.
SB EM7000 (nee 6910) EM0480 x 2

QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #44 on: 04/06/2014, 03:22 PM »
re: Valve lube - @ $3 it's a bargain worth having in the drawer. A report from Perth coffee servicers suggested the major repair issue with EM7000's has been replacing steam knobs - I thought at the time maybe they were flimsy but mine are pretty solid units so now I wonder if the stiffness problem causes people to apply more & more force until they break them?

re: temp-sensing wand... another point is the difference in jug size. It has to be something other than a simple timer because a 1L jug heats slower than a 650ml which heats slower than a 300ml.

It is NOT A TIMER...  It is a thermocouple and very accurate. 

It just the rate at which the temp is sensed by the code and then displayed.....

Have you worked out how the pressure is read / displayed....   Mehaaaaaaaaaa  LOLAROF 

I like the way they have done it but the purist and those that do not understand physics would Laugh / Cry...

Journeyman

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« Reply #45 on: 04/06/2014, 04:03 PM »
:D I realise about the timer issue - was reading a bit further up and realised I hadn't mentioned the size of jug issue.

I must admit, I kinda gave up on the pressure reads - I look mainly to see where it is. All my best coffees are at the top of the 'best segments or slightly above. Anything in those segments is under-extracted. Anything at max is pretty much choked, although I have had an occasional 45sec+ extraction that delivered liquid gold from fresh beans. :D

Be interested in how it works though. The EM6910 had the same issue - the recommended segments were not the best place to be when extracting.

PS: It is nice to be on a forum where Sunbeam owners aren't automatically treated as sub-normal cretins who clearly don't understand you have to spend $3000+ before you can make or understand coffee. Refreshing change. :D
Never doubt there is Truth but doubt that you have it.
SB EM7000 (nee 6910) EM0480 x 2

QM0996

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #46 on: 04/06/2014, 04:47 PM »

PS: It is nice to be on a forum where Sunbeam owners aren't automatically treated as sub-normal cretins who clearly don't understand you have to spend $3000+ before you can make or understand coffee. Refreshing change. :D

Don't speak too soon...

Honest_Gaza

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #47 on: 30/04/2017, 11:53 AM »
Update time....have had the new replacement machine approx 3 Months and so far, so good.

Well another 3 Years have gone by...and still enjoying my coffees each day.

Apart from swapping the Steam Wand Rubber Knob with the one from the Hot Water one (due to splitting of the rubber tab)...and a good hit of WD40 in the Steam Wand control valve about 12 Months ago (all stiffness is now gone and the steam shuts off without brute force  ;D)...this has been very reliable.

Thought I'd let people know as it's coming up to Mothers Day and the Machines are still out there.
Sunbeam EM7000 (replaced EM6910 after 5 Years use...but is now the 3rd EM7000 Machine)
Sunbeam EM6910 (replaced faulty EM6900)
Breville Smart Grinder Pro

askthe coffeeguy

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #48 on: 30/04/2017, 01:44 PM »
I found a red model en6910 in hard waste and restored it some years ago the red model was the prototype of the em7000 and has all of the same functionality of the 7000 and its mainly my back up machine but ive got it in use at the moment and its still going strong!!!

P
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ThePiccoloChaser

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EM7000 Purchased - EM6910 Retired - Initial observations
« Reply #49 on: 16/08/2017, 05:48 PM »
Well another 3 Years have gone by...and still enjoying my coffees each day.
Thought I'd let people know as it's coming up to Mothers Day and the Machines are still out there.

Thanks for continuing this thread along Gaza and others too. 

My M-I-L insists father in law should have a machine for upcoming birthday (maybe squeeze it in early as Father's day).  While I'd like to help get them to something like the Oscar II their budget probably keeps them to the EM7000 / EM7100 / Brev BES870 mark.  Will keep an eye out for any good pricing on these.

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