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Brett H

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« Reply #75 on: 15/06/2012, 05:22 PM »
Sorry... Am over the PID hype and have been for many years...


In effect it is just the electronic version of a mechanical system and may have a tighter range. It still relies on a sensor (lots of issues) and just drives an element (thermo effects are many) thus where is the masive improvement. Other than ease of adjustment / maybe ?


However there are 1001 other variables that have more of an impact.


Besides, once you get the water up into the Leaver body; your pid sensor and any elements in the boiler are useless.


Thus the reason why the Strega uses a separate system to try to manage the variables..

Post of the week prize right here  :thumb:

Only caveat is that I wouldn't trade my machine for quids  :coffee2:
Quickmill Achille, La Pavoni Professional, Robur, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600Plus, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

UNM

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« Reply #76 on: 15/06/2012, 05:47 PM »
and if I was without my pid, I would have crap coffee at least half the time. best bang for buck upgrade to a small single boiler non-lever IMHO.

but surely a pid with two thermocouples, one in boiler and one in a lightweight actively heated group head would give more control over extractions.

The heavy lever group is presumably at least partly to compensate for poor design elsewhere.
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Bean Flying

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« Reply #77 on: 15/06/2012, 07:51 PM »

The heavy lever group is presumably at least partly to compensate for poor design elsewhere.

Commercial lever groups is where this discussion should stay to be fair too, smaller stuff is a whole other can of worms. As written elsewhere by me elsewhere today if memory serves and that's the bit you are referring to ;) E61 type groups I think are around 5 or 6 kg, lever groups are 9 or 10kg.

Lever groups are generally an evolution if not a straight out copy of the early ones. Mass is one of the stabilizing factors as is distance from the boiler plus a host of other things including heat sinking of the frame. If you raise the boiler 1 degree over time the head of the machine assuming it is well designed will also come up a notch. Use it outside in a strong cool wind and a long heating flush is sometimes needed after an idle period. There was a shocker some time back on HB that the head simply wouldn't warm up in standard form so well designed and proven is a caveat.

If you boiler oscillates +-0.1 and gets checked 100 times a second or +-1 degree with a boiler coming on and off every other minute won't mater a darn as the TIME taken to see the head move up or down is way slower than the boiler cycle time on a P/Stat.

galumay

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« Reply #78 on: 15/06/2012, 08:32 PM »
PID on a lever. Good, bad or indifferent?

I wouldn't rate it high on my list of things to have, but it's very nice if the machine comes with it. My Izzo Pompeii has one and it certainly makes temp profiling easy to fine tune particular blends or beans, so I would rate it 'good' but 'nice to have' rather than necessity.

I don't understand the emotion one way or the other, to be honest.
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Wonder

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« Reply #79 on: 07/08/2012, 12:01 AM »
Hi all, I thought Id post as I've finally found my cure for upgraditis, with a move to the lever side.. Just got my Faema Lambro out of its box and up and running. Well it's on the kitchen bench and Ive just pulled two shots with it...

I must say its a beast compared to my vbm jr, it's so quiet, heats up faster and it's oh, I don't know 50-60 years old...

I think there's going to be a lot more roasting so I can get a lot more practice in on this beauty.  Oh and I owe a debt of gratitude to the coffee lover who I convinced that I needed it more than he did...   :thumb:

Pics will be posted once I can  :)

Note - Photos supplied by the previous owner and posted
More of my home setup on a later post
I understand less, the more I learn

Brett H

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« Reply #80 on: 07/08/2012, 04:44 PM »
Hi all, I thought Id post as I've finally found my cure for upgraditis, with a move to the lever side.. Just got my Faema Lambro out of its box and up and running. Well it's on the kitchen bench and Ive just pulled two shots with it...

I must say its a beast compared to my vbm jr, it's so quiet, heats up faster and it's oh, I don't know 50-60 years old...

I think theres going to be a lot more roasting so I can get a lot more practice in on this beauty.  Oh and I owe a debt of gratitude to the coffee lover who I convinced that I needed it more than he did...   :thumb:

Pics will be posted once I can  :)

Wow, a huge congratulations.  How wonderful that another of these glorious pieces of functional art lives on.  I can't wait to hear the pictures!
Quickmill Achille, La Pavoni Professional, Robur, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600Plus, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

derrilex

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« Reply #81 on: 07/08/2012, 07:22 PM »
I think you just breached trademark regs Brett. Function Art (TM) is mine  :rofl: :rofl:

Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #82 on: 07/08/2012, 09:23 PM »
That's a beautiful Lever Wonder
With equally beautiful photos  :thumb:

Hope you have beautiful coffee shots over and over again

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lacehim

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« Reply #83 on: 07/08/2012, 10:34 PM »
That is very nice Wonder.  Your very lucky to own one!  Must have made a dent in your wallet though!

More photos required when you get it all set up, and a video of a shot being pulled would be fantastic. :)  You can never get enough photos of sexy levers!

derrilex

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« Reply #84 on: 08/08/2012, 06:53 AM »
Now that's retro funk  :thumb: :thumb:

Ol Grumpy

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« Reply #85 on: 11/08/2012, 10:51 AM »
Hi Guys,
I have a question which will clearly display my ignorance of things 'lever coffee' but it is a question I ponder and I'd appreciate your feedback.

Actually, it's 2 scenarios...

1) Do you guys leave your machines turned on and ready all the time or do you turn them on and off- on demand? If the latter... Then let's say first cup of the day... How long is the morning ritual- from Goah to whoa. Turn- on till clean-up and out the door?

2) I'm fascinated by the Rossa Portapresso. Clearly I don't have the hands on experience myself with either, but from a position of blissful ignorance I see many comparisons to a lever machine. Especially in the profile setup on the Rossa. The Rossa easily extracts to 9 bar but Ross, in his website notes, has indicated a smoother and 'softer' brew at around 6 bar. So do you guys test and record your profiles or is it a 'by feel' & taste, is 'good enough'?

BTW I'm a tradesman with 35 years experience so I consider myself a Craftsman- not yet a Master Craftsman, but still practicing... Not blowing my trumpet- rather just sharing the perspective I'm coming from.... Ie after using power tools all my life I find now more and more I reach for a hand tool and get much better work for the effort...
I see the Rossa as the 'hand tool' and the 'Strega' as the 'power tool', if you get my drift.

Thanks,

OG
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Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #86 on: 11/08/2012, 11:28 AM »
Hi Guys,
I have a question which will clearly display my ignorance of things 'lever coffee' but it is a question I ponder and I'd appreciate your feedback.

Actually, it's 2 scenarios...

1) Do you guys leave your machines turned on and ready all the time or do you turn them on and off- on demand? If the latter... Then let's say first cup of the day... How long is the morning ritual- from Goah to whoa. Turn- on till clean-up and out the door?

2) I'm fascinated by the Rossa Portapresso. Clearly I don't have the hands on experience myself with either, but from a position of blissful ignorance I see many comparisons to a lever machine. Especially in the profile setup on the Rossa. The Rossa easily extracts to 9 bar but Ross, in his website notes, has indicated a smoother and 'softer' brew at around 6 bar. So do you guys test and record your profiles or is it a 'by feel' & taste, is 'good enough'?

BTW I'm a tradesman with 35 years experience so I consider myself a Craftsman- not yet a Master Craftsman, but still practicing... Not blowing my trumpet- rather just sharing the perspective I'm coming from.... Ie after using power tools all my life I find now more and more I reach for a hand tool and get much better work for the effort...
I see the Rossa as the 'hand tool' and the 'Strega' as the 'power tool', if you get my drift.

Thanks,

OG


First let's tackle the question of warm up time from cold
That depends on the individual machine and its construction
So as a general guide it will fall from a quick 15 min to a leisurely 30 min
However I will only make a comment on my machine as user knowledge

I own the Strega and it's fitted with group head elements that warm / heat the head to a predetermined temp
And I can make coffee after 10 / 15 min from cold start even in winter

Now let's talk about the Rossa - as you live in Brisbane you should visit sponsor Barazi as they have one to see on display
Seeing it in person is the best way to judge a product

KK


Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Bean Flying

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« Reply #87 on: 11/08/2012, 11:34 AM »
Will answer number 1 first then I need additional lever coffee to consider your question number 2  :coffee:

1) All machines vary in heatup time and thermodynamics.

My Pavoni is ready to go after 15 minutes and after 20 is to hot to make a good coffee with out a cool down.

My 1 grp Fioranzato takes around 25-30 minutes for first coffees and due to the thermal mass it can be turned off for 2-3 hours then it only takes 10-15 minutes before it is ready to go again. Power saving is not much I guess as during that reheat time it is mainly on compared to more off than on if it is left running. If I am at home for the day it just stays on for easy walk up coffees.

3 grp Izzo currently running on reduced power (3000W) with it's 20L boiler takes 50 minutes or there abouts before I am happy with it.

These times can all be shortened up a bit by pulling water through the groups but I prefer just to allow for the warmup. Timers are great BTW  8)

Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #88 on: 11/08/2012, 01:11 PM »
Most lever machines have some profiling within its tolerances

There is a fellow by the name of Jim Schulman that has used the Strega with the view of duplicating the profiles of different machines
He has posted a great video on it
See this link and view the videos - http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/bezzera-strega-second-look-t18933.html

But you want to see this video on profiling and I quote from Jim

Quote
PRESSURE PROFILING ON THE STREGA: The attraction of a lever machine is that it can be played like an instrument. The Strega's combination of lever and pump multiply these possibilities. On the Strega, the pressure of the preinfusion, the early, middle and late part of the shot can be separately controlled. This allows the Strega to emulate the operation and taste of a wide variety of high end espresso machines.

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Bean Flying

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« Reply #89 on: 11/08/2012, 01:16 PM »
Hmmm thanks guys about the Pre-heat times. I figured that with a boiler there would be a lead time dependent on volume. Interesting though that some machines will get too hot, horses for courses.

With the Rossa I've seen several now. I've even had some discussions with Ross about a demonstration and I know 3rd crack has made his shop available as a venue for said demo. Alas the stars have not yet lined up and so I wait patiently...

I really didn't want to start a discussion on comparisons... It's peaches and pears.

Nor to jack the thread- I guess really I was just wondering if you lever guys have looked at the pressure profiles or just accepted the good coffee for what it is?

Spun off further discussions of pressure profiling to here http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/espresso-machines/pressure-profiling-with-lever-espresso-machines/

Black Shiraz

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« Reply #90 on: 23/09/2012, 02:12 PM »
Well was down at 155 Union Rd Ascot Vale yesterday having a  coffee at Reverence Specialty Coffee & Tea and after a lovely El Salvador SO double ristretto latte and special roast called candyman as a SB.  I ventured one block down with a 4.5yr in hand to catch the tram to the Melb Show.  Just happened to walk pass a little shop I never knew existed in Bravo Coffee Machines and Supplies at 171 Union Rd. Did not venture in but had to stop an use the phone to take a pic for you lever nuts.  From what I could see in the shop which does coffee and sell gear, this baby is no doubt for sale (sorry for the crap photo but you get the gist).

What I love is I will explore this little area a little more as my sister lives just off Union Rd..... :)

http://www.reverencecoffee.com.au/






Lacehim

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« Reply #91 on: 16/10/2012, 01:09 PM »
As you know I've been looking for a new machine for ages.  Nothing really ticked all the boxes, but the Quickmill 0996 Achilles is damn bloody close.




Commercial group, with 2 springs, which for me means hopefully more reliability with seals.  It's around the same size as the Londinium (less depth, a bit more width from what I can see), and weighs 40kg.  I'm not sure my glass table will hold that much!!!  Still I wouldn't be moving it about anyway.

Here's the specs.

- Professional lever group;
- 4,5 lts. copper boiler - Automatic recharge;
- Boiler with electronic niveau fill probe;
- Niveau glass;
- Stainless steel anti-burn steam nozzle;
- Stainless steel anti-burn water nozzle;
- Volumetric pump - Professional thermostat;
- Certificated safety valve;
- Safety system with pump and heater stop;
- External rechargeable safety thermostat;
- Stainless steel cup warmer;
- Switch for use with water tank / direct water connection;
- 3 lts. water tank;
- Manomer to see the pressure in the boiler;
- Direct water discharge in the drip tray;
- With 1 and 2 exits filter holder.

Turns out Jack at Sorrentina has imported a few with the intention of selling them as a permanent line if all goes well.  I have been more than happy with his customer service since owning the PV lusso.  He's looked after me post sale! :)  Also he's had a better experience with Quick Mill in terms of customer service too which is good to hear.  He's got the version with taps,  but I've seen them pictured online with fick style taps.

Anyway, here's a few videos of one in action.

[embed=425,349]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guf96RPnvmk[/embed]

[embed=425,349]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCNo9BT0JB4&feature=channel&list=UL[/embed]

They seem relatively new to the market, not many reviews, and not really mentioned on here.  With a Bosco group strapped on the front, and a similar thermosyhon design to the Londinium I, it's seems to work well.  The guy in the video seems more than happy with his.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this machine?

Paolo5

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« Reply #92 on: 16/10/2012, 03:14 PM »
Hi Lacehim,

I have just bought one from Jack. It arrived last Friday.

It is a seriously-sized machine!

Lacehim

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« Reply #93 on: 16/10/2012, 04:36 PM »
Mine is underway with Jack as we speak.  So what are your initial thoughts about the machine?  Whats the build quality like?  And most importantly what's the coffee like? ;)  can we have a photo of your set up.

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« Reply #94 on: 16/10/2012, 05:45 PM »
I am really impressed with the build quality of the machine. Stainless frame....stainless everything! And in my eyes this is a really attractive looking machine.

The portafilters are the only dodgy part of the package. They are not well balanced and the handles are too short for my liking. I would say the ideal candidate for some quality turned wooden handles!

Mine is identical to your first picture. I have seen pictures of an Achille with black feet, flat top and toggle water and steam valves.

Although there are other reports of heater capacity, mine has a sticker on it that says 1550W.

I have only had the machine for 4 days but the coffee is improving daily. !8 gm of grounds is too much...16 gm gives better results....not for flavour but for less channeling. Flavours are very good....not excellent yet...crema is less prolific that from my Cremina...but improving.

Mine just now took 13 minutes to close the anti-vac valve and then a further 4 minutes to build pressure to the 1.2 bar that it is set at. Mine is at proper operating temperature when the base of the lever is quite warm.

The double springs take more oomph to lower than what you would think. It is indeed a serious machine.

Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #95 on: 16/10/2012, 05:59 PM »
Quote
The double springs take more oomph to lower than what you would think. It is indeed a serious machine.

I had the same reason to get a longer lever handle for my Strega 


See this thread - http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/accessories/custom-resin-handles/

It certainly makes it a lot easier

This one is the newest one I use


KK
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Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

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« Reply #96 on: 16/10/2012, 07:58 PM »
Lacehim.

I think you have made a good choice.

Quickmill are an unbelievably low-profile Italian manufacturer who turn out superb quality equipment. I dealt with them about 4-5 years ago - small family operation with tons of pride in their product and surprisingly for Italians - a real care about customer support. They are highly skilled engineers.

I'm amazed why they have not been able to get a decent run here in Aus - their other domestic and auto machines are assembled from good quality components and well engineered.

Quickmill get more airplay in the US where one of the big Disti's takes a leading role in promoting the brand.

They have been around for a long time and make other catering gear of high quality. Quickmill also produce coffee equipment that is OEM by other brands.


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« Reply #97 on: 16/10/2012, 08:07 PM »
Well done Lacehim and Paolo5
All reports suggest that the QM is a good unit
I think it'll be a winner for Sorrentina
Looking forward to your reports soon
Some days, you just can't git rid of a bomb (Batman)

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« Reply #98 on: 16/10/2012, 08:53 PM »
Thanks guys, it's reassuring to know that.  With such a big purchase I was a bit concerned about picking the right machine.  This machine will hopefully last me a long time.

I hope Jack at Sorrentina does sell Quick Mill machine permanently.  He's a great guy to deal with, and a pleasure to do business with.  He also mentioned to me that Quick Mill have been fantastic support wise too, so hopefully we can also have good backup from the manufacturer.

I'm now on the look out for a nice table to put it on.  My current one is rather low and doing my back in!  I hope the wife doesn't freak out when she gets the visa bill!

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« Reply #99 on: 16/10/2012, 09:42 PM »
Maybe she won't notice it's an entirely different machine on the bench? ;)
LONDINIUM I, Compak E10.

Full disclosure: I have commercial arrangements with Bezzera (AU) and Londinium Espresso. I am not required to market them on this forum & any opinions expressed are my own.

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