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Author Topic: Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?  (Read 390427 times)

Fresh Coffee

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Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?
« Reply #1100 on: 07/04/2015, 11:54 AM »
Well .. that was a long coffee break  :coffee2:

Ponte Vecchio still working a treat with no problems  :thumb:
.....................

Went to the MICE Coffee expo in Melbourne a few weeks ago .. which was interesting with free cups of coffee on offer from the many vendors.
Some pretty classy looking coffee equipment to drool at. The Slayers caught my eye with their modern Industrial design.
..................................

Here's the deal -breaker - Only had about 4 coffees .. only none put my little Ponte Vecchio Lusso lever machine & Compak grinder to shame .. and it cost a whole lot less than the gear they used. Having said that - I can't get anywhere near the 'body' that the Baristas were able to produce with their expensive equipment .. only for flavour .. I give the PV Lusso the  :thumb:

Enjoyable post.

Regarding "body":
a) dependent on the SIZE of the filter "basket" being used in the machine, and
b) dependent on the beans (especially where some use SO's so they cant adjust the balance by adding body through blending...)

Lusso uses significantly smaller filters than standard commercial/cafe sized filters, and if they are using standard doubles and using all that to make one coffee for you then you are comparing a coffee made with a 14 gram filter, to one made with a filter holding somewhere between 19 to 21 grams OR.....if they are using the extra large sized filters then you could be comparing your 14 grams to a coffee made with say 26 grams or so.

So even if the beans were the same as the ones you like to use at home, there can be a vastly significant difference on the palate dependent on the filters used by any particular exhibitors at the show in terms of balance and body in the cup (not to mention volume in the cup).

For mine, I don't see any need whatsoever to use anything other than standard size equipment throughout and make coffees in appropriately sized cups with single portions (ie split the coffee from a standard double filter) but hey.....what do I know  :stir

Hope that helps.
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Kevohere

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Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?
« Reply #1101 on: 07/04/2015, 12:12 PM »
but hey.....what do I know  :stir

Yes, an enjoyable post. And...... a great "body" explanation  :thumb:
"14 Coffee Awards 2014, 4 so far for 2015 Syd Royal"  :thumb: :thumb:

Do you know, a lot of us don't know what we know?
Just keep sharing what you know FC... and all (on this forum) will be the better for it!  :lamp:
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Moon

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Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?
« Reply #1102 on: 07/04/2015, 12:46 PM »
Cheers Guys .. and all those coffee awards speaks volumes to me FC  :thumb:

I was wondering whether it was due to the smaller basket size.

I find a 14g double basket is a bit too strong for a std 150ml cup (allowing 1cm for microfoam)
I Use a 250ml mug but only fill it to 170-180ml + microfoam .. so using the 14g double basket .. it needs the extra
20-30ml of steamed milk to get the right balance for my taste.

Considering the above findings .. if I am to use a mug (cause std size goes too quick) ... ideally I reckon I need an 18g basket.. or even a 21g if I feel like a coffee with a bit of extra punch. I'm finding a 30ml shot volume is ideal regardless of the cup size.
20ml misses out on layers of flavour .. and 40ml gets into over extraction .. squeezing that little bit too much from the dregs.

I've no idea whether larger sized baskets are available for the PV Lusso - which uses a small 45mm basket

C-man

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Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?
« Reply #1103 on: 12/04/2015, 09:16 AM »
when I want more body I use a triple baskit and control shot time to suit

but I think the little PV is limited for that with small portafilter size

maybe someone could build or modify one for you?

I think that would be a good mod for you.....a nakid with a deeper baskit
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Moon

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Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?
« Reply #1104 on: 12/04/2015, 08:16 PM »

Hi C-man

I'll keep an eye out for basket makers. Going say 18g would make it pretty deep. I could always do a double and then add a single for the full mug cup.

Thats where the double lever machine would've been handy .. over my single. Originally intended getting the twin lever. Still can be done though.

Having said that ... I'm pretty happy with the balance I'm getting at the moment .. using less milk .. 35mm of froth instead of 10mm for a mugalatte.

C-man

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« Reply #1105 on: 13/04/2015, 03:20 PM »
what size is the portafilter?

like 51mm?
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Moon

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« Reply #1106 on: 13/04/2015, 03:37 PM »

45mm

Moon

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« Reply #1107 on: 21/04/2015, 04:49 PM »

Have had a couple of Mug sized lattes at a local Cafe .. 'The Black Seed' .. where they use a 21g portafilter for the double-shot.

Yeah .. the reason I don't get the body or colour, as previously pointed out by another forum member .. is due to the PV Lusso's smaller 14g double-basket. The extra 7g makes a big difference.. other than the fact they are using a Pro Synesso coffee machine and Mazzer grinder.
Has to make some difference you'd hope after spending all the $ on them... well, other than looking impressive sitting in their Cafe looking all cool  8)

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« Reply #1108 on: 22/04/2015, 12:45 PM »
Have had a couple of Mug sized lattes at a local Cafe .. 'The Black Seed' .. where they use a 21g portafilter for the double-shot.

Yeah .. the reason I don't get the body or colour, as previously pointed out by another forum member .. is due to the PV Lusso's smaller 14g double-basket. The extra 7g makes a big difference.. other than the fact they are using a Pro Synesso coffee machine and Mazzer grinder.
Has to make some difference you'd hope after spending all the $ on them... well, other than looking impressive sitting in their Cafe looking all cool  8)

Yeah mate dont be concerned, its only about "image and cool".  the difference you picked is only from the size of the filters being used.

Give you a simple example of the BS we have to put up with in the image and cool stakes:

Cafe cleints demand you (the roaster supplier) give them a mazzer grinder. Why? Cause its been built up t be the darling quality image icon in the coffee trust network. They think its a "better' brand than some other quality brand. Here's the thing...you may be importing another quality brand say eg macap. Just as good as a mazzer (dependent on model specified for individual ciscumstance), and costs the you LESS than having to buy the mazzer off some other importer. But the client demands the mazzer. You roll and get them one, and that type of carry on costs you more and increases te cost of supply to the client. Multiply that scenario ten fold and hundred fold over a portfolio of cafe clients that you supply.

A needless impost.

What happens then? You add a margin to the price of your coffee (per kilo) to compensate you for the extra cost. This is CERTAINLY the case when you are forced to put in coffee machines such as the brand you mentioned, that cost more than 100% more than good name regular machines to purchase so you can lend it to the client. Client cops an increased price on his coffee over the term of his contract.

Who wins....the importers and agents of and the manufacturers of the equipment.

Does the cafe actually make better coffee? Not really...only if they think so.....

This is the current state of BS in the market, and the trust network is causing an upheavalin cafe coffee industry and putting millions of dollars in the hands of certain manufacturers and their agents, who are laughing all the way to the bank and increasing their business on the back of free advertising and promotions provided by aparently intelligent and well educated people who unfortunately....cant seem to see past the ends of their noses and see the unelievable CON that is being perpetrated and that they are helping with.

Why...because the trust network is building insecurity in people to the point where they dont believe in their own capacity to make a good cuppa, unless they are backed up by the favoured brand equipment.

And an extra, needless, layer of stupid costs has been imposed in all coffee supply and consumption industry.

Rant over.



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Moon

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« Reply #1109 on: 22/04/2015, 02:00 PM »
I enjoy a good rant .. only just finished one off myself over in the 'Why are Grinders so Important' thread as you posted yours :angel:

I was over at the 'Back Seed Cafe' yesterday .. and Waleed had put the price of his already expensive 'Sensory Lab' roasted beans up from $48 kilo to $58 kilo. Why? Because the boys from Sensory Lab had paid him a visit to have a meeting - and told him his beans were being sold too cheaply.
Apparently they wanted their beans to be sold at a consistent price around Melbourne .. quoting that David Jones in the City were selling them for around $60 kilo (?)

They even encouraged Waleed to put an even higher price than what David Jones were selling them for. Waleed had them discounted for $48

I said to Waleed .. that's strange .. cause being a local punter myself, what did I do? I looked at Sensory Lab's online website to see if I was being 'ripped' .. and whether they could be purchased and delivered at a cheaper price online. Yep .. same kilo of beans for $50

My take on this .. and it is only my opinion/guess .. is that Sensory Lab were happy for the local Cafe in Werribee to display and promote their brand .. but wanting the price so high .. little would likely be sold .. as Werribee is not an upmarket suburb with lots of disposable $ compared to customers of an upmarket department store like David Jones in the City where they know they are paying a premium for goods.

Being $50 on their site .. plus, I'm guessing $10 for postage, or thereabouts .. these bods from Sensory Lab, by my calculation, weren't keen on the local Cafe being able to sell their beans cheaper than they could online.

By putting the price up above $60 .. which they were trying their hardest to convince Waleed to do .. I figure they want Black Seed Cafe to promote their brand by serving up their coffee beans to customers .. and if they were impressed .. not pay the higher price by purchasing some from Waleed .. but go online and get them cheaper from them.  >:D


If this is the strategy .. you gotta love that.. yeah? :pan<-- Sensory Lab


Fresh Coffee

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« Reply #1110 on: 22/04/2015, 02:25 PM »
Yes these are the antics and market manipulations that go hand in hand with what I described earlier.  Your observations are good....very very good. Its all about branding, profit, and whose pocket it goes in to.

There are others pulling similar stunts but I wont go into them because it aint worth the angst (or the time).

But I will say....there seems to be no shortage of (very well educated apparently right thinking) fools who allow themselves to be manipulated by these sorts of stunts.

The other way to look at it is...if you cant beat em join em. Arguing with people and trying to show them a way that will cost them significantly less in their back pockets for no less real quality in a cup has been proven not to work.  So just say yes and go along with it and pass on whatever costings are added to everything...way to go ! 

Id say the best thing for mr black seed to do would be to buy a good name but correctly priced product for his cafe that he is happy with, and tell the other supplier to take a hike. He then tells his clients he has sourced an exclusive super high quality coffee for himself in his area.   It will make little difference in the clients lartays, he will save himself a squillion in wholesale coffee cost, and he wont be putting money back into the previous suppliers pocket by funneling retail coffee sales away from himself to them. He also shouldn't identify his business with the brand of his supplier. It is the exclusive black seed blend....and helps build his own brand name.

And if he is already doing a good job on the brew (proper bar rooster techniques), there is no cause for concern in terms of him losing any clients with a change in his coffee supply.

Its only my opinion, but I've seen a hell of a lot of cafe owners that have a MAJOR INSECURITY problem in their own abilities and skill to run their cafes and produce a good cuppa, who feel pressure to be identified with certain brand names and get screwed by these brand names along the way (again...not my place to go there with real life descriptions for what clients will sign up for so they can be identified with someone else's brand...). It almost unbelievable, yet it happens on daily basis.
 
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Moon

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« Reply #1111 on: 22/04/2015, 02:51 PM »
Sensory Lab beans .. from what I, with my modest gear produced are very nice coffee beans .. and comparing them with the best blends I've tried so far .. Georges Premium (Brunswick, Vic) at $34 and Ground Control (Tweed Heads Qld) at $34 kilo ... I wouldn't say they were better .. and they are wanting to retail them for $60+

Sensory Lab are obviously trying to be a boutique brand .. and taking a leaf from Apple's marketing success - who've managed to con customers into happily paying $1,200 for a mobile smart phone - that are manufactured in China for the cost of not much more than a bowl of rice and some stir fried veges  ???

Apple -  the envy of Companies all around the Globe ..for how they manage to do that. Ripping their customers off blind .. and they walk away thrilled.
This behaviour is the benchmark of business strategy .. of which so many aspire to these days. The ol' Gordon Gecko's 'Greed is Good' from the 80's appears to have made a comeback. 

lukemc

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Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?
« Reply #1112 on: 22/04/2015, 08:43 PM »
Great post FC.  After trying black seeds coffee and excellent food I can honestly say he doesnt need sensory lab beans. He should ditch them for a good "non" hipster roster that will work with him to produce a great blend. His passion will shine through and he will save a dollar too.
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Brett H

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« Reply #1113 on: 22/04/2015, 10:19 PM »
Great post FC.  After trying black seeds coffee and excellent food I can honestly say he doesnt need sensory lab beans. He should ditch them for a good "non" hipster roster that will work with him to produce a great blend. His passion will shine through and he will save a dollar too.

Great posts everyone. 

Love a good rant and even better,  an educated rant!
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Moon

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« Reply #1114 on: 22/04/2015, 10:35 PM »

Mine are the rants ... Fresh Coffees are obviously the educated rants.

With all his coffee awards and experience .... I don't have a problem with that   >:D

If you want to read a n00bs rant folks ... Moons are the ones to entertain you   8)

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« Reply #1115 on: 23/04/2015, 03:54 PM »
yeah, yeah, well I still say get one of your baskits modified somewhere somehow until it packs a decent volume
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Moon

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« Reply #1116 on: 23/04/2015, 05:27 PM »

I tried a 14g double .. then added a 7g single giving the 21g full double shot that Cafes use for a mug sized large latte 25ml from the D .. and 15ml from the S.

Didn't think it was as nice as just using the double with less milk volume added.

Moon

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« Reply #1117 on: 24/04/2015, 06:50 PM »
Great post FC.  After trying black seeds coffee and excellent food I can honestly say he doesnt need sensory lab beans. He should ditch them for a good "non" hipster roster that will work with him to produce a great blend. His passion will shine through and he will save a dollar too.

Fair call .. glad you ended up giving it a try  :thumb:

C-man

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« Reply #1118 on: 26/04/2015, 01:36 PM »
I tried a 14g double .. then added a 7g single giving the 21g full double shot that Cafes use for a mug sized large latte 25ml from the D .. and 15ml from the S.

Didn't think it was as nice as just using the double with less milk volume added.

That's not the same as extracting through a thick lump of grounds for sheer body
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