Hello again. Replying in point form for best efficiency:

Hi there Fresh Coffee. Thank you for your thoughtful round up.  Distinctions you made are sharp. 

You're welcome 

Follow-up question:
Do you (or anyone reading this) know anything about Bosco brand?
They say their machines are hand built, to order.
I realise now that in some way all these machines are 'hand built' to order....
I was trying to compare the 2 group La Pavoni and the Bosco.  But I have run into a dead end.

Bosco is small manufacturer in the south of Italy, and you took the words right out of my mouth. All machines are hand built, by people, on moving work benches or conveyor production line, irrespective of brand !  (Ill put up some photos at a later time as it is most interesting). More so Lever machines for all producers because for the most part they are not really a "stock" item and you have to stop a run of production of modern conventional type machines, to build a couple of special order machines !

The market leader in commercial lever machines is La San Marco, where almost all production goes to the south of Italy, where lever machines just "stuck" while everywhere else they went to modern electro mechanical and electronic machines. Its also possible the reason they "stuck" could be due to "suitability(?)" for the particular style of espresso they make in the south of Italy, but that is just conjecture on my part.

Just be aware that in terms of what I write....I wear a "commercial" hat with little emotional influence (the machines are workhorses end of story) and in terms of giving you an opinion on a comparison between a La Pav and  Bosco, I would have to say they both make coffee and will be subject to the usual caveat that the operator is in control. The differences internally may well be major, but externally they will be cosmetic, and they both make coffee out the front and the operator would have to learn his way around that (as with any machine). What you really need to know is how reliable they are in service and over time, and I cant answer that.

The problem with buying lever machines is as already mentioned, that you may have to wait for a special order depending on who you deal with.

And I will have to firmly declare a commercial interest here and now. My advice is always to buy locally but now that you have mentioned that a machine would have to come from Italy for you before being sent from here to Vietnam, I can advise that my business currently has a 2 group as well as a 3 group Lever machine (New) in the showroom in Canberra right now, ready to go. They are the same manufacturer/brand as the BFC semi commercial machines that many participants in this forum have at home, and can be demonstrated to you on the spot if you are coming back to Oz at any time. The are very reliable....and perform well and as they are designed to. There are no reviews, and you have to rely on taking a look yourself or trusting the commercial supplier on his word.

Hope that helps.

Hi KK,

good post but I will respectfully disagree with this comment: "...since the advent of the pump / push button electronic machines came into existance they have been trying to replicate the flavour and consistency of the lever machines..."

Manufacturers make what they make, and refine it with R & D over time in many areas of performance including the character of the brew to be as good as it can be, at the time. But I don't believe anyone is trying to replicate the coffee character of a lever machine in an electro mechanical/electronic machine. They are what they are, if you want a lever you buy one, and if you want the other you buy that... The coffee is still good (if not great when all the variables fall into place well).

Also of course 99% of the coffee drinking public is not into specialty coffee per se and are not analysing each brew or comparing it (the one they are drinking now), to one they remember that was produced on some other type of machine in the past, because it has been well shown that that is flawed (trying to compare the now on the palate, to the then in your memory). You have to compare one on one, or forget it. And when a difference is found...what does it mean, to any individual. You like tomatoes, and I like toe-mate-oes ! Which is better?

If it wasn't for the never ending discussions on web forums, the lever machine would be well gone such as the model T ford, except in areas where they are still in favour such as in coffee bars the south of Italy and so, who would be trying to emulate the brew they produce?

Indeed 

But just on "...in one of the advertising quotes about trying to get that lever taste..." hehehe....yup doncha just love that never ending BS machine  !

Hi BP,
I have a 1 group Bosco, and am very happy with it. They are well made, and easy to service. Only electrical part is the element. A very good choice if you have to service the machine yourself. The portafilter is 58mm.
There is an Australian agent, but you may be better off buying direct from Bosco.
I would buy a 2 or 3 group unit for a business, not a single group.

I agree with everything said above, but would like to add one element that everyone is missing.
In today's cutthroat market, people do not want just a coffee, they want a story, romance and theatre if possible.
Watching someone use a lever machine always draws interest, and is a good form of marketing for your business.

Regardless of the food or beverage, the theatre of making, preparing or serving it is very important. People want to be entertained and educated, and are happy to pay a premium for this. Good operators realise this, and incorporate it into their offering.

While new is always good, a well serviced second hand lever machine is excellent value. It will save you money. There is not a lot to go wrong with levers, so do check out what Fresh Coffee is offering. It just may be the perfect machine to get you started.
good luck with your venture!

Brilliant thread!  Welcome BP!!  Thank you FC.... More myth-busting than Mythbusters!

BP, have sent you a PM 

I should have mentioned...my people imported the 2 & 3 group BFC Lever machines that we now have in stock, for the purpose of keeping one to use in our own cafe, and sell the other (which ever we didnt end up using). It turns out they are both for sale because our baristas are small ladies and it was decided the ergonomics for them using the lever machines in a busy situation just dont work. To be perfectly honest, you should have no fear as Lever machines are relatively simple in addition to the fact we imported these for our own use and would not import something that will not perform in the required manner.... also have been dealing with this manufacturer since year 2000 (16 years) and their equipment is of excellent standard and very reliable.
 
Just tried to insert a pdf file for you but its too big.... please refer to PM.

Hello BP.

ha ! I was out on the chainsaw and a heap of messages came in including a phone call so stopped and removed the ear muffs and here I am...

Your PM came through but you just sent me what I had written to you with no reply included... I'll send you another PM with my email address, just copy and paste that into your emails and we'll pick it up from there.

cheers...

Hi the CF folk

Is it possible to buy a KKTO roaster any where?  I realise they are no longer being made.  Would there be second hand options??

Thanks

BP

Hi Brett H

Thanks for your action on this.  I did send kk an email via his site and he had no suggestions.  No one sells them once bought:)  all happy customers.  He said he's stopped production these days.  I will do something, the KKTO is the best option for me.  I ought to save my dong for now. doh:

I would be interested to know if there was the 'best version' to build or if they are only improvements on his original idea.   Have seen pictorial plans on his site and I have watched a couple of utube vids.

Cheers

BP

I have secured some returning contracts and so very very very time poor at present until I get on top of the work schedule

I have advised BP to build the first version roaster as it is the most economical version to build with all used parts
BP is from Vietnam so I have to be mindful of the geographic area and what can be sourced

KK   

Thanks Brett  H and kk

Yes this is the way to go.  No short cuts. 

Sourcing some gear will take time, it is all here.  I saw a big turbo oven today, just looked at it, took it apart, 1,400w I think. Told my wife I want the top part only but not the base, dish etc!!!! she thought I was a crazy foreigner. 

I will ask for tips if needed. 

I will get back to you, give me time to go shopping.

And, thanks for the offers of support, that is cool.

Cheers
BP
Vit Nam

No
Get a 1400 W model BP