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BP

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« Reply #25 on: 03/02/2016, 12:53 PM »
Hi there Fresh Coffee

Thank you for your thoughtful round up.  Distinctions you made are sharp.  My only experience with a reputable brand is with La pavoni.  They have been supportive re repair work and advice re my old lever machine.  I realise now why they don't stock these 2, 3, 4 group lever machines.  They did say to me they'd have to order it especially for me if I bought one and it'd take a couple of months to arrive in au.  Then they'd ship to Viet Nam for me.  I understand now why they don't have machines for sale on the floor; yeah, they are not so popular.

Follow-up question:
The other machine brand I saw online recently (and have had very helpful responses from) was Bosco. 

Do you (or anyone reading this) know anything about this Italian company?

They say their machines are hand built, to order.  I realise now that in some way all these machines are 'hand built' to order....  I was trying to compare the 2 group La Pavoni and the Bosco.  But I have run into a dead end.  Perhaps your advice about knowing your re seller is a sound place to begin the decision making process. (one box ticked)  As I said La Pavoni in Sydney have always been met my needs.

As an aside.  Our coffee shop here won't be so busy serving western style coffees.  So I feel a lever machine (with all its quirks and good looks) will cover my needs.  I do enjoy the hands-on challenges of the lever machine.  So my preference remains with a lever machine.  If I was selling coffee in a busy shop in au then I'd be thinking twice, for sure.  I recall having coffee in a very busy shop in Lt Collins St, Melbourne a while ago, I noticed a sexy looking 4 group lever machine on the counter but it was not in use.  The owner was busy using a big common brand machine.

Thanks Fresh coffee.....

BP
on the beach, in Viet Nam

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« Reply #26 on: 03/02/2016, 01:32 PM »
Hello again. Replying in point form for best efficiency:

Hi there Fresh Coffee. Thank you for your thoughtful round up.  Distinctions you made are sharp

You're welcome  :)

Follow-up question:
Do you (or anyone reading this) know anything about Bosco brand?
They say their machines are hand built, to order.
I realise now that in some way all these machines are 'hand built' to order....
I was trying to compare the 2 group La Pavoni and the Bosco.  But I have run into a dead end.


Bosco is small manufacturer in the south of Italy, and you took the words right out of my mouth. All machines are hand built, by people, on moving work benches or conveyor production line, irrespective of brand !  ;D (Ill put up some photos at a later time as it is most interesting). More so Lever machines for all producers because for the most part they are not really a "stock" item and you have to stop a run of production of modern conventional type machines, to build a couple of special order machines !

The market leader in commercial lever machines is La San Marco, where almost all production goes to the south of Italy, where lever machines just "stuck" while everywhere else they went to modern electro mechanical and electronic machines. Its also possible the reason they "stuck" could be due to "suitability(?)" for the particular style of espresso they make in the south of Italy, but that is just conjecture on my part.

Just be aware that in terms of what I write....I wear a "commercial" hat with little emotional influence (the machines are workhorses end of story) and in terms of giving you an opinion on a comparison between a La Pav and  Bosco, I would have to say they both make coffee and will be subject to the usual caveat that the operator is in control. The differences internally may well be major, but externally they will be cosmetic, and they both make coffee out the front and the operator would have to learn his way around that (as with any machine). What you really need to know is how reliable they are in service and over time, and I cant answer that.

The problem with buying lever machines is as already mentioned, that you may have to wait for a special order depending on who you deal with.

And I will have to firmly declare a commercial interest here and now. My advice is always to buy locally but now that you have mentioned that a machine would have to come from Italy for you before being sent from here to Vietnam, I can advise that my business currently has a 2 group as well as a 3 group Lever machine (New) in the showroom in Canberra right now, ready to go. They are the same manufacturer/brand as the BFC semi commercial machines that many participants in this forum have at home, and can be demonstrated to you on the spot if you are coming back to Oz at any time. The are very reliable....and perform well and as they are designed to. There are no reviews, and you have to rely on taking a look yourself or trusting the commercial supplier on his word.

Hope that helps.




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Koffee Kosmo

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« Reply #27 on: 03/02/2016, 01:42 PM »
If you are really keen on commercial lever machines
My list of reliable brands are

Bezzera ( 1,2 & 3 group )
La San Marco
Izzo
Bosco
La Pavony

A little history on Lever machines is in order, but my explanation may not be complete
At one time  the lever machine was the only machine used
As the industry got bigger and much much busier and customers wanted quicker service, a drawback was noticed with lever machines
The barista needed to wait for the lever to finish its cycle before starting another espresso pour

I believe that the Bezzera was the first out with the electronic / pump & push button espresso machine
This transition made speed in cafes unmatchable by lever machines and they lost favour except in single lever versions

But since the advent of the pump / push button electronic machines came into existance they have been trying to replicate the flavour and consistency of the lever machines

As I read in your post BP - " not much use " So if you are not going to use it a lot can you get away with a single lever ?
And if you get busier add another single

Easier to purchase single levers, easier to service and a more economical way to start

Disclaimer
I am a happy lever owner :)

KK

Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

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« Reply #28 on: 03/02/2016, 01:56 PM »
Hi KK,

good post but I will respectfully disagree with this comment: "...since the advent of the pump / push button electronic machines came into existance they have been trying to replicate the flavour and consistency of the lever machines..."

Manufacturers make what they make, and refine it with R & D over time in many areas of performance including the character of the brew to be as good as it can be, at the time. But I don't believe anyone is trying to replicate the coffee character of a lever machine in an electro mechanical/electronic machine. They are what they are, if you want a lever you buy one, and if you want the other you buy that... The coffee is still good (if not great when all the variables fall into place well).

Also of course 99% of the coffee drinking public is not into specialty coffee per se and are not analysing each brew or comparing it (the one they are drinking now), to one they remember that was produced on some other type of machine in the past, because it has been well shown that that is flawed (trying to compare the now on the palate, to the then in your memory). You have to compare one on one, or forget it. And when a difference is found...what does it mean, to any individual. You like tomatoes, and I like toe-mate-oes ! Which is better?

If it wasn't for the never ending discussions on web forums, the lever machine would be well gone such as the model T ford, except in areas where they are still in favour such as in coffee bars the south of Italy and so, who would be trying to emulate the brew they produce?
http://www.beanroasters.com.au

Australia's Most Awarded Coffee Roaster
53 coffee awards 2016; 35 coffee awards 2015.

Importer of BFC espresso machines in Australia

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« Reply #29 on: 03/02/2016, 02:12 PM »
Your explanation is also relevant and correct
Apart from general workhorse machines that have worked faithfully day in day out and don't get a mention

We have all noticed the newer designs to the market that have
Set pre infusion
Profile adjustment
Temp adjustment
Just to name a few
And I read somewhere in one of the advertising quotes about trying to get that lever taste

I'm all for advancement and R&D because without it we remain static

Cheers
KK

Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

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« Reply #30 on: 03/02/2016, 02:21 PM »
Indeed  :)

But just on "...in one of the advertising quotes about trying to get that lever taste..." hehehe....yup doncha just love that never ending BS machine  ;D !
http://www.beanroasters.com.au

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Importer of BFC espresso machines in Australia

BP

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« Reply #31 on: 03/02/2016, 03:04 PM »
Hi Fresh Coffee

Thanks again for your response.

I would be interested in looking (online) at your 2 group lever machines you speak of.  Can you send me a link?  And prices too?

Regards

BP
PS
not sure if this is an ok question to ask of you here on this forum.

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« Reply #32 on: 03/02/2016, 03:18 PM »
Hi BP,
I have a 1 group Bosco, and am very happy with it. They are well made, and easy to service. Only electrical part is the element. A very good choice if you have to service the machine yourself. The portafilter is 58mm.
There is an Australian agent, but you may be better off buying direct from Bosco.
I would buy a 2 or 3 group unit for a business, not a single group.

I agree with everything said above, but would like to add one element that everyone is missing.
In today's cutthroat market, people do not want just a coffee, they want a story, romance and theatre if possible.
Watching someone use a lever machine always draws interest, and is a good form of marketing for your business.

Regardless of the food or beverage, the theatre of making, preparing or serving it is very important. People want to be entertained and educated, and are happy to pay a premium for this. Good operators realise this, and incorporate it into their offering.

While new is always good, a well serviced second hand lever machine is excellent value. It will save you money. There is not a lot to go wrong with levers, so do check out what Fresh Coffee is offering. It just may be the perfect machine to get you started.
good luck with your venture!
1 Grp Bosco; Macap M4D; Gino Rossi RR65; FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster, KKTO.

BP

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« Reply #33 on: 03/02/2016, 06:47 PM »
Hi there Lwowiak

There have been a few responses to my questions on lever machines.  (very good)  You mentioned 'fresh coffee' as a place to visit and look at a second hand Bosco. ??  Are you able to give me the link to that site?  Two group lever is my preference but shopping around would be helpful.

Cheers
BP


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« Reply #34 on: 03/02/2016, 06:58 PM »
Brilliant thread!  Welcome BP!!  Thank you FC.... More myth-busting than Mythbusters!
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

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« Reply #35 on: 03/02/2016, 10:14 PM »

Brett, appreciate your comments  :)

As promised, here are some quick and dirty photos of production set ups taken while doing the walk throughs.

There are 5 photos @ BFC factory near Venice.
One photo @ Rancilio factory outskirts of Milano. Different approaches to the same thing.

Small components assembled at work benches, taken to other benches and forever assembled into larger and larger assemblies, then these large bits are assembled into frames on the trolleys or prod line where electrics are then added and each skeleton keeps "growing" into a complete machine at the end...all hand made  ;)
http://www.beanroasters.com.au

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Importer of BFC espresso machines in Australia

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« Reply #36 on: 04/02/2016, 08:30 AM »
BP, have sent you a PM  :)

I should have mentioned...my people imported the 2 & 3 group BFC Lever machines that we now have in stock, for the purpose of keeping one to use in our own cafe, and sell the other (which ever we didnt end up using). It turns out they are both for sale because our baristas are small ladies and it was decided the ergonomics for them using the lever machines in a busy situation just dont work. To be perfectly honest, you should have no fear as Lever machines are relatively simple in addition to the fact we imported these for our own use and would not import something that will not perform in the required manner.... also have been dealing with this manufacturer since year 2000 (16 years) and their equipment is of excellent standard and very reliable.
 
Just tried to insert a pdf file for you but its too big.... please refer to PM.










http://www.beanroasters.com.au

Australia's Most Awarded Coffee Roaster
53 coffee awards 2016; 35 coffee awards 2015.

Importer of BFC espresso machines in Australia

BP

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« Reply #37 on: 04/02/2016, 05:49 PM »
Hi Fresh Coffee

Yeah, send any other info and pics to my email address.  i tried sending you a note on the PM page but it didn't send.  I haven't got the hang of this website and all the jargon yet. :)
Cheers

BP

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« Reply #38 on: 04/02/2016, 06:24 PM »
Hello BP.

ha ! I was out on the chainsaw and a heap of messages came in including a phone call so stopped and removed the ear muffs and here I am...

Your PM came through but you just sent me what I had written to you with no reply included... I'll send you another PM with my email address, just copy and paste that into your emails and we'll pick it up from there.

cheers...
http://www.beanroasters.com.au

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53 coffee awards 2016; 35 coffee awards 2015.

Importer of BFC espresso machines in Australia

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« Reply #39 on: 04/02/2016, 10:52 PM »
Wonderful pics FC!  All that bling in one place!! 
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

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Buying a KKTO coffee roaster
« Reply #40 on: 13/02/2016, 07:30 PM »
Hi the CF folk

Is it possible to buy a KKTO roaster any where?  I realise they are no longer being made.  Would there be second hand options?? ::)

Thanks

BP

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Buying a KKTO coffee roaster
« Reply #41 on: 14/02/2016, 08:57 AM »
Hi the CF folk

Is it possible to buy a KKTO roaster any where?  I realise they are no longer being made.  Would there be second hand options?? ::)

Thanks

BP

Hi mate

KK has made some wonderful versions of this roast over the years.  He is the man to contact. I'll drop him a PM and he can come into the thread and advise.
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

BP

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Basic questions: ask here, buying a KKTO used or new
« Reply #42 on: 14/02/2016, 03:06 PM »
Hi Brett H

Thanks for your action on this.  I did send kk an email via his site and he had no suggestions.  No one sells them once bought:)  all happy customers.  He said he's stopped production these days.  I will do something, the KKTO is the best option for me.  I ought to save my dong for now. doh:

I would be interested to know if there was the 'best version' to build or if they are only improvements on his original idea.   Have seen pictorial plans on his site and I have watched a couple of utube vids.

Cheers

BP

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« Reply #43 on: 14/02/2016, 09:40 PM »
Pasta pot set 7 litres only, windscreen wiper motor, turbo oven, fan and bucket for a cooler.... The hardest bet is the agitator.  This is where the KKTO is a dark art.  I have a couple of sockets, drill adapter, rotisserie fork and copper pipe for mine.  I do easily one kilo in under 16 minutes.  Every version is different and will require tweaking dare I say it even the unit purchased from KK... although this would work the best soonest. 

Paul hasn't answered my email to this home account either so I say he's frantic at work.  Leg the building begin my friend... Start a thread so we can advise and cheat you on.  You may even get some of us to post up our handy work for your inspiration!
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

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« Reply #44 on: 14/02/2016, 09:53 PM »
I have secured some returning contracts and so very very very time poor at present until I get on top of the work schedule

I have advised BP to build the first version roaster as it is the most economical version to build with all used parts
BP is from Vietnam so I have to be mindful of the geographic area and what can be sourced

KK   
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

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« Reply #45 on: 15/02/2016, 07:25 PM »
Great to hear from you KK! 
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

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« Reply #46 on: 16/02/2016, 12:36 AM »
Thanks Brett  H and kk

Yes this is the way to go.  No short cuts. 

Sourcing some gear will take time, it is all here.  I saw a big turbo oven today, just looked at it, took it apart, 1,400w I think. Told my wife I want the top part only but not the base, dish etc!!!! she thought I was a crazy foreigner. 

I will ask for tips if needed. 

I will get back to you, give me time to go shopping.

And, thanks for the offers of support, that is cool.

Cheers
BP
Vit Nam

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« Reply #47 on: 18/02/2016, 11:47 AM »
Hi there

I have found  1000w TO some chinese make.

Is 1000w ok I have read some are using 1200 or 1400.

Cheers BP

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« Reply #48 on: 18/02/2016, 12:37 PM »
No
Get a 1400 W model BP
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

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« Reply #49 on: 18/02/2016, 05:40 PM »
Yes... This is a very important factor!,
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

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