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Author Topic: I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?  (Read 26061 times)

Seeya Latte

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« Reply #25 on: 05/02/2014, 08:52 PM »
We'll done Laurent
It's one big learning exercise that's all so stick at it..at least you're having a crack :)

You're not alone with not hearing cracks... I still struggle to hear them on the KKTO unlike my popcorn maker but that doesn't stop me trying and trying again - each time making more progress - it's all part of the fun
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« Reply #26 on: 10/02/2014, 09:20 PM »
Today same Brazilian beans roasted with Baby Roaster on bigger burner (Gary the one that looks too big for the base).
1st crack 8:50min
2nd crack 10min
Roast time: 10:50min

shaking every 45sec.

Roast evenness is improving but not quite there yet. Roasted beans smell much better than on the smaller burner after 20min roast (got a bit of a copper type smell when roasted without enough heat).

here is the pic for your comment on how to improve. Taste report tomorrow....

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« Reply #27 on: 10/02/2014, 09:28 PM »
If you have time LMZ and room at the back of the shop I can bring the KKTO so you can see a roast and compare

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« Reply #28 on: 10/02/2014, 10:03 PM »
LMZ.

It's going to take a lot of practice and experimenting, but you will improve.

Perhaps it's the image, but that roast of the Brazils looks a bit inconsistent with a fair amount of tipping and scorching combined with under-developed beans.

It will of course depend upon the type of Brazil you are using, e.g. if it's a natural, then it will be far more sensitive (less tolerant) to incorrect energy (heat) application.

You must keep the bean type and it's processing method in mind when roasting - build up your own level of knowledge.

Naturals may have a more mottled appearance, at least initially and they may even out over a week if roasted correctly. Washed and dense beans of high quality when roasted to the correct levels will appear beautifully uniform.

My suggestion is to try a number of different types of beans, e.g. hard and dense Central Americans, soft Southern Americans and some washed Africans.

Across a range of different beans, you may find that one of those beans better suits your heat particular heat application and you will nail it easier - which of course gives you further motivation and incentive.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that there are significant differences in every single home roasting system and you will need to find the right combination of heat and technique to suit your own systems.

PNG, Colombia, Peru and Mexicans might be easier prospects.




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« Reply #29 on: 10/02/2014, 10:08 PM »
Hi KK this is a great idea as I would not mind. Live demo on the KKTO using the same beans I have here... Unfortunately the shop is no place for roasting coffee due to OHS considerations  :(

Would Boyland avenue be an option? Or anywhere on my way home to the inner city?
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« Reply #30 on: 10/02/2014, 10:26 PM »
If you can take time to pop over during the day we can roast and drink coffee from the Strega
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« Reply #31 on: 10/02/2014, 10:38 PM »
Thanks Jeff, beans used are Brazil Fazenda Laranjal - Yellow Bourbon and it is not the image but you are very kind  ;)

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« Reply #32 on: 11/02/2014, 08:08 PM »
LMZ I'll get sid to come in here and maybe offer some advice, she's had hers for at least a year and loves it.
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« Reply #33 on: 11/02/2014, 08:19 PM »
thanks SS, cannot wait to meet and hear from Sid  ;)
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« Reply #34 on: 11/02/2014, 10:27 PM »
On checking, I've had it for two years now. :) Mine has a motor.

I would not say I'm an expert and I don't have any experience with other roasters so I cannot compare.

I did have some "chuck out" roasts when learning - actually, I sent them to work with my husband because the people there had no idea of what good coffee actually was and so they all loved them.

I aim for first crack at ten minutes and for second crack to start at about fifteen. That is what I read on someone's discussion about using it and have been following that ever since.

I had to switch burners around a bit until I worked out a method that worked for me. Some people use those small portable ones with the butane bottles. I use the stove. At first I used a midsize burner and an aluminium foil baffle to concentrate the heat, which I needed to have it hot enough. These days, I get it to first crack on the wok burner to get the timing right and then switch it to a smaller one when first crack is established to coast through a bit more, as I read that first crack is exothermic and so you don't need to use as much heat during it, and also not after it, you can let the beans go into second crack at a lower temperature. I do need to keep some heat on into second crack but it's much less. Certainly to get those target times you need to get the heat down once first crack is happening but it's best to wait until it's rolling so it doesn't stall. Drop the heat too soon and it will tend to stall and that's not too great. You can turn the heat up again and it goes but it's not as good. It *is* pretty responsive to heat input changes.

What works for me is to have it fairly hot until smoke starts coming, then back it off a bit, then let it get into rolling first crack, then take it to a slower heat so it doesn't gallop into second crack too soon. Depending on the bean and the planned extraction method I usually finish it a bit before second crack, at the first snaps of second crack, or when it's got a little more into second crack. With the time targets I mentioned above.

I do give it a visual check as it goes, generally in the period after first crack, but when learning I was doing it more often. I rely on ear a lot more now, but as it's getting close, I'll tip a few beans into the bowl I'm putting them into, and decide whether to stop then or to go a bit longer. Even if I do that a few times that's OK because it's just a mix of flavour profiles from lighter to darker and I don't mind that. Obviously I'm doing that after a check into the drum shows that they are pretty close to being ready. You need a decent directed light to do that.

Different beans will sound different. Some will crack louder or quieter, they may go all around the same time or others will crack over a longer time period. First crack is louder and some have a very subtle second crack. It's very seat-of-the-pants and I'm probably not doing it to the absolute optimum but I've been enjoying what I've been drinking and others enjoy it too so something is going right.

You won't be expecting as even a roast as you would get in say a convection roaster. If I post photos I get comments about unevenness and also about divots in the beans but I don't worry too much about that these days, it's kind of a function of the fact that some beans will end up contacting the copper more than others, even with shaking. Some varieties will tend to roast more evenly and some less so. The unwashed Africans simply will not roast evenly for me. But, generally my beans tend to be more even than the photos you have been showing. So, something to work on. I don't shake all that often and sometimes I forget for a few minutes, like if I'm doing something else at the time. When I do, I use a sort of figure eight motion, to try to get it all mixed up. I try to do it at least every couple of minutes. Probably that's not optimum either but it's working OK. I've read every minute is good but that means I can't easily go and load the dishwasher or whatever while roasting.

Whether to roast different beans together or separately, for me, depends on the bean and what I want out of it. If they are similar in size and hardness I'll do it more together if I'm blending. Lately though I tend to roast different beans separately. But most recently I'm just grabbing roasting time windows when I can and doing single roasts of SO beans like Yirgacheffe and PNG Kimel, instead of roasting greater numbers of types of beans separately.

Like I said, I'm not an expert and also I can get a bit distracted, but it's good enough for me and for the people that I've given coffee to. :)

The photo below was from October last year. I was experimenting with roasting a bit lighter than I'd mostly done in the past. I got a bit distracted on one of them (I often multi-task when roasting and check in while doing other things, and/or keep an ear on it) and it got a bit darker than intended but it tasted OK. In no particular order, there are Brazilian, Honduran, Ethiopian and Sumatran beans in the photo.



I hope my post helps. I'll answer any questions you have of me, with the disclaimer that I'm only someone who enjoys a bit of home coffee roasting and drinking.

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« Reply #35 on: 12/02/2014, 05:44 PM »
Thanks Sid, your post is very helpful.

You guys (ladies) are so much better than us for multi-tasking...as you demonstrated. :laugh:

I will try to increase time to second roast by switching to a slower burner on my stove as suggested.

I am struggling with the even roast but will keep trying the shaking.

I found this post from CS about a hose clamp you can fit onto the arm to get a very even roast without bay need for shaking. Any experience anyone?

Here is the content:

 Originally Posted by stucci 
I have done a similar mod, not requiring to split the drum. You need to get a 17-32mm hose clamp from the hardware. Go to the plumbing section and make sure it is 316 band and housing, the ones in the irrigation section have a steel body and screw.
Wind down the clamp so that it is a tight fit on the roaster inner spindle. Then it is a matter of gently forcing the clamp over the spindle and down into the centre of the drum. If it is too tight then loosen the clamp, too loose then tighten the clamp. I find that once it is in the right position (centre of the drum) you can still get a small spanner in there and tighten the clamp a little more so it doesnt spin on the shaft.
Once done then all you need to do is straighten out the excess band (needle nose pliers) so that it almost touches the inside of the drum.
Costs less than $5, takes about 10 minutes, easily removed, and most important all stainless steel.
Simon
A great idea for which I modified the installation.
On the handle end I loosened the socket screw so I could pull the handle and the gear off the shaft. Then undid the two small screws on the same end holding the copper drum to the shaft.
The shaft then comes out of the other end easily allowing me to easily attach 2 hose clamps using a screwdriver instead of fiddling in a very confined space with a small spanner.
I used 8/22 clamps as that is what I had.
I made sure that the tails on the clamps would fit through the bean loading hole ( bent them until they would ) and then refitted the shaft and handle. Bent the tails on the clamps out with pointy nosed pliers out so they almost touched the outside of the drum.
Result, a very even roast with no shaking.
I'm almost sure after doing a couple of roasts that the profiles are different but I will have to do more roasts to be certain,
I previously thought that the shaking of the drum was part of the back to the roots charm of this roaster, but after this 5 minute mod it won't be happening again.
John
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« Reply #36 on: 12/02/2014, 07:32 PM »
I've never tried that but the best way to find out about something is to give it a go. :) Sounds pretty easy to set up, and reversible.

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« Reply #37 on: 14/02/2014, 09:35 PM »
I have done the mods today on the stirrer arm by adding 2 Stainless Steel 316 grade hose clamps in the middle section of the shaft. I will report on how this impact on the roast....

Maybe I will not have to shake anymore and can (with reason) attend a few small side jobs at the same time like Sidoney :)
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« Reply #38 on: 15/02/2014, 01:57 PM »
LMZ,

I do not know how to use the Baby Roaster, but I can share some basic principles (or rules) about coffee roasting in general.

1. Keep thermal momentum moving - if you can't get any indication of the temperature on you apparatus, you need to ensure that heat is always being applied.

Some home roasting equipment lack the ability to leverage thermal mass, conduction, radiant or other, etc. so I would imagine it is vitally important to keep heat applied so that your rate of rise in temp does not stall or flat-line.

2. Monitor, Log, Review, Optimize

I don't follow any home roasting equipment threads, so I don't know if anyone has considered trying to either install or place a thermocouple near the heat source or at some stationary point on the Baby Roaster where heat can be measured.

This would allow you to monitor, log and review your techniques more accurately and subsequently arrive at ideas for improvements or changes with greater precision. As an example - say you place a TC at the same fixed point of heat source for each roast and you then use this method as a control parameter for determining how much heat to apply at each stage of a roast profile. It's so that you can repeat more consistently or at least have greater confidence that you are running a batch with more control. Looking at a flame is very difficult.

3. Optimal Batch time and Roast Development

There are targets that people use as guides - you need these as foundations.

15 minute roast duration is something to start with, but it's not the holy grail that everyone seems to worship.

Optimal roast duration is different based upon many variables - heat transfer method, efficiency, rate of rise, etc. Sure, there are some very natural transitions that occur during roasting that have proven to "transpire" in given time-frames, but these are just guides and someone roasting on a 60kg roaster will experience different conditions than a small batch home roasting system.

It is possible to engineer your systems to meet these sort of targets, but I stress very clearly - don't get hung up on always trying to achieve that mythical 15 min roast time. It could be that 12 mins might produce something better for you and your systems. Always experiment.

Roast Development Time (RDT) is also another highly contentious issue.

Old school theories have this in the 3 - 5 mins range, but I tend to think those sort of numbers are more suitable to larger, commercial systems that have super-precise control over airflow and heat transfer.

RDT depends upon the way in which your systems work.

With higher ratios of conduction used as the primary thermal transfer method, it can be possible to extend RDT's to longer periods with lower risks of stalled Rate of Rise (ROR's) if you say compared this to a method that empliys higher convection (air) as primary heat transfer.

Understanding how your device behaves in that critical RDT zone is the key to improved results.

Shorter/faster RDT's can yield some interesting results so long as earlier stages of the roast have been executed correctly. What I'm trying to point out here is......don't be afraid to have a 2min RTD.

The important thing to remember is keep experimenting until you find that a change has resulted in positive improvements - then keep running in that direction.

Logs, reviews (cupping) and ideas are what creates a good roast - unfortunately, technical science plays a lesser role.



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« Reply #39 on: 15/02/2014, 03:52 PM »
Jeff,
Thank you for posting so much information. Your contributions here are always eagerly read by many.

LMZ,
I do not have anywhere near the roasting experience that Jeff does, but can add some helpful (hopefully) advice.
I use a camping stove and the butane canisters. I find this provides an excellent heat source that is easily adjustable. The butane provides a very concentrated and hot flame. Roast away from the wind or any drafts. I roast in the garage, and ensure the environment is ventilated. Roasting in the evenings allows me better control of the heat source. The flame is more visible and you can see any minute adjustments to the heat source.
I start off with a 3/4 flame, and then slightly reduce it at the first puff of smoke (3-4 minutes). Heat is applied constantly until first crack. Gradually reduce the heat as first crack gets under way, and lower the flame to a low setting. Keep the heat constant and second crack should start in 3-4 minutes. If it does not, then increase the heat. Do not tip at the first snaps of second crack, but let the roast continue for anywhere between 15- 60 seconds. IF you get a very vigorous second crack, then tip straight away, as the roast will get away from you very quickly.
Sometimes I turn off the heat as second crack starts and allow the drum to keep turning. this usually helps to even out the roast. About 30 -45 seconds later I tip out the beans.
The trick is to keep trying with the same bean (Brazil is a good one to learn on) and try different approaches. You can reduce the intensity of the flame to control the heat between first and second crack; so that second starts 2 minutes, 3 minutes or  4 minutes after first. Try each roast and see which result appeals to you. If you extend the time between first and second to more than 5 or 6 minutes, you usually end up with a flat result. It depends on the bean though, as harder beans will take longer to roast in this unit.
I shake every minute or so, and smell the roast as it progresses. Open up the unit and inspect the roast (tip out a couple of beans and give them a crunch) at least once or twice after first crack. If they taste sour and acidic, keep roasting. For espresso you want to reach second crack. Don't be afraid to roast a little darker, as this unit will still keep some of the flavours with a dark roast.
If you get a lot of divots then you need to shake the drum more often. Cool the beans as rapidly as you can.
Don't get frustrated, just keep trying, it is only 200g at a time.
I find control of the flame to be the most crucial aspect to master. 12 minute roasts yield beautiful results. Harder beans will take longer. The addition of the stirrer unit helps even out the roast for dense beans.
When I roast a hard bean, I maintain 3/4 heat all the way to first crack, ensuring that I shake every minute. This ensures an even roast. I do not like to walk away from an open flame, and once first crack has started, I always pay close attention to ensure the roast is progressing as it should. If the ambient temp is low, you may have to increase the heat.
For my lever machine, I like all the roasts to reach second crack as a bare minimum. I normally tip when they are popping and have even taken the roasts to darker levels. It all depends on the type of bean. Brazil and Indonesian beans are stopped on the cusp or just into second crack. Others are roasted longer.
Taste is very personal. First crack at 71/2 to 9 minutes is usual, do not be afraid of short roasts, as this is only a small batch. Experiment with a lower heat before first crack (say 10 minutes), but then only slightly reduce the heat so that second is finished 2-3 minutes later. This works well for Indo and Brazil.
All the best!
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« Reply #40 on: 15/02/2014, 06:35 PM »
Thanks Jeff for very informative post. Very good of you to share your knowledge.

Much appreciated Lwowiak for posting what works for you as well. I think you right and I will keep trying with the same beans for a while... I also agree as I gain more experience controlling the heat is the key which means I will keep logging my roast profiles in my little notebook.

Here is my first roast after the stirrer arm mod. It does improve how even the beans look....

150g Costa Rica green Beans
1st crack: 9.30min
2nd crack: 13.50min
Roast: 14.15min

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« Reply #41 on: 15/02/2014, 07:48 PM »
Great to see of your progress Laurent. The last pic you displayed looks like the best so far.  :thumb:
Let us know how your first two roast batches tasted.
If you dont like them as espresso based coffee, then try a filtered coffee and compare.
As shown on my video, medium heat at the start for the drying phase, then higher to medium to high heat, then anticipate to slow down the heat just before first crack, then cruise til second.
Those guys are right. The roasts taste great even taken right into second crack.
My preference is still just on the cusp of second as I like to experience both roast and origin characters for balance.
Keep trying Laurent.
Certainly do think about building a KKTO too. You never know, when your friends enjoy your coffee, you may wish to roast for them so that they can pay for your coffee habit, that's where the KKTO and coretto comes in with their bigger batch sizes.
They are a great roaster since I also have them both together with the coretto.  :thumb:
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« Reply #42 on: 15/02/2014, 09:06 PM »
Make sure you use at least 200g green bean weight. I have gone as high as 230g, but not with beans that produce a lot of chaff. Any less than 200g (green bean) will not produce an even result.
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« Reply #43 on: 17/02/2014, 06:59 PM »
Baby Roaster Costa Rica today using some of your previous suggestions
No shaking due to stirrer arm mods
200g green
1st crack 10.45
2nd crack 15.20
Roast time 15.45

I feel that heat control before 1st crack is key and you were right 200g seems to improve evenness

Come on Gary some encouragement please (he is a tough judge!) ;)

Laurent
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« Reply #44 on: 17/02/2014, 08:28 PM »
Looking lots better than the previous attempts  :thumb:

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« Reply #45 on: 17/02/2014, 09:30 PM »
 ??? I felt my ears burnin..

Oh hey, you know, better to tell it like it is rather than be too nice and say yeah sure that'll do.
You may know the song that goes..." You gotta be cruel to be kind, in the the right measure, cruel to be kind, it's a very good sign etc etc" It's a 70,s or 80,s song, i think..

Judging by the looks, it is the best roast thus far Laurent, well done.  :thumb:

The proof in the pudding is how it tastes, rather than how it looks.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, have you tasted the first two roasts?
How did you like the taste?

200 gm is always the recommended load, you can err less or more but not much more or much less.

Next roast, try and lessen the gap between first and second. Add slightly higher heat setting and go for 3 minutes after first crack. Stop and cool just as you get 15 to 20 seconds into second crack.

I'll do a roast on Sunday and put up another pic.
Or, maybe another video. Wan? :)

KK, I still intend to do the KKTO video in due time mate.  ;)
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« Reply #46 on: 17/02/2014, 09:55 PM »
Ahahah....
Of course I don't mind your cruelty as I know you are fair...and kind >:D

Tastewise: all  drinkable so far.

The first couple of roast with Brazilian were quite average though.
The last roast with Brazilian was the best tasting one (even though looked much less even as was done before stirrer arm and heat control)
Then I changed To Costa Rica beans which are -to my taste- much stronger with less fruity notes so I use them for my cappuccino. Not as enjoyable as true espresso (no sugar no milk). So I have tried the same beans roasted on the KKTO (big thank you KK). KKTO roast looks perfect but the taste -even though a bit better than my roast- is still in the same strongish notes. All this to say that taste-wise I think I am on the right track.

Cannot wait for roasting some Columbian supreme next...

Cheers
Laurent

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I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?
« Reply #47 on: 17/02/2014, 10:55 PM »
The Colombian Supremo was the one i used in the video.
They should be an easy bean to roast.:)
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

LMZ

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I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?
« Reply #48 on: 09/03/2014, 08:29 PM »
Hi Guys, after some short holidays in Tahiti (lucky me) I have been back to my baby roaster.

I have finally find a way to use the medium burner and not the larger one. First attempt below...

Roast times are pretty consistent. I am getting better at seeing/smelling/listening to the different phases of the roast.
Since I have dumped the complicated timers to focus more on the roast itself I have found the process more 'enjoyable'.

Taste is quite ok as long as I don't go City Roast or too dark passed the second crack which I did last week and the coffee was undrinkable as espresso).

In tahiti they have a choice of 2 for Cappuccinos:
French espresso: with bomb cream 'chantilly'
or
Italian espresso: with frothed milk but not very smooth....
Plunger coffee is everywhere though.

cheers
Laurent
Lelit PL PLUS, Iberital Challenge Grinder,  VST18g Basket, Baby Roaster FZ-RR 700

samuellaw178

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I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?
« Reply #49 on: 09/11/2015, 11:35 PM »

I don't follow any home roasting equipment threads, so I don't know if anyone has considered trying to either install or place a thermocouple near the heat source or at some stationary point on the Baby Roaster where heat can be measured.

This would allow you to monitor, log and review your techniques more accurately and subsequently arrive at ideas for improvements or changes with greater precision.

I know this thread is old but I find many posts here to be very informative (after revisiting).

I've installed a thermocouple in my Baby Roaster for a while, and has logged over 70 roasts. I'd say installing the thermocouple had changed the playing field altogether for the Baby Roaster. Without thermocouple, it is more or less hitting blindly in the bush, especially if you roast different beans and aim for drops earlier than second crack.

I have a long 100mm stainless steel thermocouple probe, slightly bent so it dips into the bean mass (I am using Gary's pic as a illustration hope he doesn't mind). I had also drilled a hole/slot on the stand so the thermocouple can sit nicely. The thermocouple is secured semi-permanently to the handle by a cable tie and some rubber bands.

With this setup, I'm getting first crack at about 200-202C consistently (outlier with some beans like Peaberries), so it's definitely consistent! It allows me to drop at a certain temp with great precision/consistency, and to control the ROR with flame. Though, a caveat is when I use too big of a flame (during the development stage) it seems the temp readout rises faster than the actual BT - if you drop the beans thinking you've reached your target temp it may end up lighter! We shouldn't heat too much during development so that isn't a problem in any way, just an observation.

Different beans react differently to the same heat setting - not sure how people are managing it without any thermometry - senses just wouldn't do it! You will be surprised how easy it is to stall the roast, as well as how dynamic the temperatures are during first crack and post first crack (for some beans there're even some interesting phenomenon during the drying stage)! Wouldn't know all that without thermometry.

The roasts from Baby roaster are pretty even to my eye - I'm using the manual version and use the flicking method shown by Gary in his video. Pic attached as well, some of the lighter-looking beans are due to chaff and lighting.

Here attached is also my latest roast graph logged using RoastLogger. If you wish to achieve consistency on the Baby, please install a thermocouple!



 

Bezzera

 

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