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Author Topic: I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?  (Read 26701 times)

Lwowiak

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I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?
« Reply #50 on: 10/11/2015, 11:57 AM »
I have had my motorised baby roaster for over 5 years, and lost count of how many roasts I have done. My only modification has been to add a s/s hose clamp to act as a stirrer.
I do not see the need for any temp probes, nor do I encourage anyone to add them. With this roaster, you use your senses, and I have learnt a lot more about roasting, then if i was using a probe. As the mass of beans is only 200g, and the copper drum is thin, the results from a probe are only indicative. What a probe will show is exactly what your senses should ascertain.
With bean masses of 500g and higher, I can see the need for temp measurement.
People using commercial drum roasters have quite an advantage with some of the latest roasting platforms, but they are roasting large batches of beans, so accurate measurement is essential.
As stated many times in the past, the baby roaster is a sample roaster. Treat it as such and you will learn a lot.
I do a base roast for any new bean, wait a few days and taste the outcome. I then make a few changes via flame management, to test what differences are achieved by roasting quicker or shorter. This info is then used to work out my approach for larger batches on the KKTO.
1 Grp Bosco; Macap M4D; Gino Rossi RR65; FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster, KKTO.

samuellaw178

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I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?
« Reply #51 on: 10/11/2015, 12:49 PM »
the results from a probe are only indicative. What a probe will show is exactly what your senses should ascertain.

As stated many times in the past, the baby roaster is a sample roaster. Treat it as such and you will learn a lot.

Hi Lwowiak,

I understand the results from the probe are only indicative and caveats are taken as such, but they have been very consistent and are indicative of what I want to achieve. I did try using my senses for probably much more than 40+ roasts (previous roaster was HG/BM), but it was hardly consistent for anything less than second crack - I get good roast sometimes and craps the other time. If that's what the Baby Roaster can do, I would have given up back then. I did also try taking notes and logging the milestones etc - it's not easy when you have to drive the roaster, control the flame, shake the roaster, take note of the timer etc. After logging(manually by note-taking) about 20-30 roasts I decided it's a worthless pursue - they're hardly consistent bean-to-bean - once I'm finished with a bean, I have to learn all over again.

Another few reasons for installing the thermometry - First, my sense of smell was easily overwhelmed and desensitized by the constant sniffing(not to mention headache). Second, I roast under a kitchen hood and am not comfortable in consuming the potential emission(diacetyl etc) produced from hi-temp roasting. Lastly, I couldn't get consistent result for lighter roast (I enjoy beans not roasted up to second crack) with different beans.

I'm just a home user - the baby roaster is my only and main roaster, and so I want consistent & predictable result. I found that installing the temp probe helps achieve that.

To give some ideas, this Peru bean I have currently absorbs so much heat that using the same setting barely bring it to first crack. The Brazil has a tendency to speed up after first crack, I wouldn't have known that without a thermometry and as such, can't take a proper measurement to circumvent that and will probably attribute that to bad bean quality. Peaberries absorb so much heat during first crack that my normal flame management would have caused a stalled roast - again, something we wouldn't know without some measurement.

To make it harder, I don't have a reference so I wouldn't know how a proper roast of that particular beans would taste like. I may achieve what I discovered by thermometry eventualy, but I would've probably chucked out tons of beans by that time - or accustom myself to drinking all those bad batches.

It's like making espresso - some swear by ballparking the dose, temp, and pressure. I don't doubt for a second that will work. But the only way to increase consistency is to have some proper indicators (by measuring them, but not get absorbed by the numbers).

Another advantage to newbie roaster(which is me!) is that - you can condition your sense of smell to the phase of roasting (as indicated by temperature). Without long roasting experience behind me, I do not know how drying phase, different development phase etc smell like - they all smell like roasting coffee, different but it's hard to tell. But to be honest, I don't like smelling them. Having myself smell like a walking roaster plant afterward is bad enough, I don't want to sniff them inside my body too. :P

Brett H

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« Reply #52 on: 10/11/2015, 05:51 PM »
Love it!!  Thank you for the bonus photos too!!
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

GaryatGala

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I-Coffee Roaster, Behmor or Baby Roaster FZ-RR-700?
« Reply #53 on: 10/11/2015, 06:24 PM »
I,m still waiting for the cheque to arrive in the mailbox!
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

mycuppa

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« Reply #54 on: 10/11/2015, 08:54 PM »
IMO using smell as a guide is over-rated and I'm sorry but I can't help laughing at all those video and photos of roaster's sniffing the beans at various stages from their trier's. I use this in the context of commercial roasters, not home roasters.

I can appreciate that additional senses may be needed for those without the equipment and logging controllers (computers or accurate thermocouples) but my view is that if you are seeing or smelling something then it's too late I'm afraid to control or manage your roast as you absolutely have to be "ahead and in front of" a roast rather than reacting or responding to it.

Along with a time counter, the current air/humidity values I also need to use 4 active temp readings to drive my systems (Bean, Drum, Air and Exhaust) with 2 of these temp readings being fundamentally critical, along with a min. 1-second sample-rate (real time) output screen (or 2x screens actually). I simply cannot do this blind without all of the telemetry systems in place and if I detect even the slightest deviation at any point during the roast which can occur in the heat-up initial batches, I am all over it in a flash. There is no way you can achieve this same accuracy using stage-based sensory skills alone.

Brett H

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« Reply #55 on: 10/11/2015, 10:34 PM »
No doubt Jeff and one only need sample your results to enjoy the very clear elements that you've realised from a bean or blend.  That's your gift and that you do it with an amount of beans that I can't even comprehend let alone imagine.  My joy as a home roaster is very different.... for me, its that every batch is different.  Sometimes infinitesimally so but different none the less.  That's I suppose why I have a machine with a PID.  I'm fickle, I like change and I gave up on data-loggers when I gave up on CoffeeSnobs and pretending I could compete in a shoot-out with a professional.  For starters, I can't... and secondly I've nothing to prove because if I want the very best beans to impress someone with, I order them from MyCuppa or Cosmorex (wife still talks about that Yirg).

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I approach my roasting as some sort of cathartic rustic artisanal (despite the electrically powered home fashioined copper agitator and Kogan heat source) pursuit that is more about the glass of red I drink with it and less about conforming to a roast plan.  I suppose I can afford to think like this because I don't stuff many roasts but in 20 years of home roasting I've had my share of mishaps as my apprenticeship.  Unlike DB I don't drink them!  Also along my journey at one point I was data-logging my roasters all the way down to my ridiculous poppers so the groundwork was there in some form or other.  Now, I've finally embraced laziness and anti-pedantry by sailing by the seat of my batch-size and the turbo oven knob (Jeff by now is undoubted breathing into a paper bag chanting 'I am on a beach, I am on a beach......).

Our little home roasters are so much fun (stay on topic, stay on topic....) and once you follow a few simple guidelines quite forgivable.  Let's not all forget that as hobbiests it's as much about the glass of red as the spreadsheets.

Disclaimer: I have an engineering friend who would tip the coffee beans in the garden and find his bliss in the xls macros he could write to collate and graph the data, then celebrate with a Coke Zero.  Each to his or her own!

Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

mycuppa

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« Reply #56 on: 10/11/2015, 11:22 PM »
I hear you Brett and totally get what you are saying. Used to think the same way when I surfed the waves around Newcastle beaches. It was just about Freestyling and total enjoyment



samuellaw178

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« Reply #57 on: 11/11/2015, 01:55 PM »
I,m still waiting for the cheque to arrive in the mailbox!

Eh??? I thought you were going to send me one for the 'free' public promotion?  :rofl:

CoffeeWala

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« Reply #58 on: 12/11/2015, 09:09 AM »
My two cents: I'm very jealous of anyone who can actually log BT. If you can do it reasonably easily with your device, why wouldn't you? I've gone through the most frustrating couple of months trying to roast some Daterra beans on the Behmor which just never seems to fail in incinerating them, no matter what permutation of heat application I use. If only I could see BT I would probably be able to improve a lot faster without wasting so much, and it is a terrible shame to waste such good coffee.

I've noticed a bit of a romantic motif of 'roasting with your senses' underlying the Baby Roaster posts I've seen on this forum and others. To my ear sounds a bit like repetition of a marketing spiel. 

Aside from how I feel after the roast when I sit too close to the roaster (diacetyl/sublimated caffeine high), I don't think anyone should be encouraged to smell that smoke, I'm no doctor but it is almost certainly carcinogenic. 

Brett H

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« Reply #59 on: 15/11/2015, 10:18 PM »
Oh no CW... You are spot on!  Don't smell.... BLURK.... look and listen.  What seriously could anyone be smelling for?? 
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

Lwowiak

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« Reply #60 on: 16/11/2015, 09:33 AM »

I've noticed a bit of a romantic motif of 'roasting with your senses' underlying the Baby Roaster posts I've seen on this forum and others. To my ear sounds a bit like repetition of a marketing spiel. 

Aside from how I feel after the roast when I sit too close to the roaster (diacetyl/sublimated caffeine high), I don't think anyone should be encouraged to smell that smoke, I'm no doctor but it is almost certainly carcinogenic.

Obviously everyone has misunderstood what Mark from CRA meant, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and their own interpretations of data, supposed fact etc.....
Just like those who believe in global warming.
I have used the baby roaster for 5 yrs, and roast with my senses, one of them being common sense.
I don't roast inside the house, but in a well ventilated garage. I do not sit with my nose plastered 5cm from the roaster either. I roast in the evenings, and this allows me to control the flame with extreme accuracy, it also enables me to see when smoke is emitted. There are many sites which list the process a bean undergoes during roasting, including photos. I found it simple (but as I have stated, everyone processes information differently) to learn what is expected at various stages of the roast, and apply this knowledge. I know exactly when certain stages of the roast are reached, by utilising the sense of sight and smell. An early benchmark of the roast occurs around 4-5 minutes, the first wisp of smoke. This represents a stage has been reached, and allows you to assess the speed and progress of the roast. Further smoke is released at another stage, also signifying a step in the process. Just prior to first crack, a whole lot happens, including the release of smoke which has a particular smell, that can be assessed from a distance. First crack is easily evidenced by sound and smoke. The process continues. Prior to second crack, copious amounts of smoke are released. These and other benchmarks are used to understand the speed and progress of the roast, which is easily adjusted (instantaneously). This info and practice (and some light reading) is all I use to consistently churn out high quality coffee.
I find the KKTO even easier to use. I followed the simple advice given by the designer.

Comparing a 200g baby roaster to a 30kg+ commercial roaster makes as much sense as talking sense to tree huggers. It is like trying to compare, driving a Vespa to driving a semi trailer. 30kg of beans behaves differently, and needs analysis.  200g is a piddly amount with too many variables.

As to Brazil Daterra, I have used this bean in many blends, I rate it as very nice, and the absolute basic bean to use from Brazil. I prefer and roast others, but they are microlots, and have much higher cupping scores.
I think I will keep my recipe for Brazil beans under wrap, as no doubt it will be ridiculed as voodoo.
1 Grp Bosco; Macap M4D; Gino Rossi RR65; FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster, KKTO.

Lwowiak

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« Reply #61 on: 16/11/2015, 01:21 PM »
What seriously could anyone be smelling for??

Charcoal.........

On a serious note, prior to first crack, there are noticeable stages that are identified by smell, but these can be noticed from a distance. Sense of smell is just used to acknowledge a certain stage has been achieved, no need to look at temp data from a probe.
1 Grp Bosco; Macap M4D; Gino Rossi RR65; FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster, KKTO.

Bezzera

 

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