Coffee Forum

Please login or register.

BeanGreen

Author Topic: KKTO  (Read 50126 times)

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« on: 05/05/2011, 01:50 PM »
Well today I roasted 3 batches of 100gms in the KKTO.  Thanks to KK for the tips.

I put a small bull dog clip at the tip to extend the blade and another to fill the slight gap in the centre.  Worked a charm and roasted to rolling 1st crack in about 12mins.  :)

A very versatile roaster and I'm happy at last now that I can roast 100gms to 600gm all on the same machine :)

Can't wait to try them in the syphon.  I roasted some png and mexican beans.



Bezzera

  • Junior Barista
  • **
  • Posts: 12
  • Sponsor
    • Bezzera Australia
KKTO
« Reply #1 on: 05/05/2011, 02:57 PM »
Well today I roasted 3 batches of 100gms in the KKTO.  Thanks to KK for the tips.

I put a small bull dog clip at the tip to extend the blade and another to fill the slight gap in the centre.  Worked a charm and roasted to rolling 1st crack in about 12mins.  :)

A very versatile roaster and I'm happy at last now that I can roast 100gms to 600gm all on the same machine :)

Can't wait to try them in the syphon.  I roasted some png and mexican beans.

Paul (KK) is always freely helping anyone that asks about coffee roasting
His personality is one of the reasons I got involved with the project

He has been very patient with me by teaching me the ropes on how to use the roaster

Chris
Australian Importers of Bezzera Coffee Machines
http://www.bezzeracoffeemachines.com.au/

New Zealand Importers of Bezzera Coffee Machines
http://www.bezzeracoffeemachines.co.nz/

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #2 on: 05/05/2011, 03:03 PM »
You are so right Chris.  I bought one of the last beta KKTOs, and it's been modified over the past year to keep up with KKs changes.  KK has been there when I needed help and even when I just had a question.  Great support, and a great roaster.  The only thing I struggled with is small batches, but with KKs advice I've been able to do as little as 100gm of green (around 2 syphon doses) which is great.  Then throw in 500gm for my espresso.  :)

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #3 on: 05/05/2011, 10:37 PM »
Excellent news Lacehim

The design has always had the capability to roast small batches of under 300 grams

I had to make a decision with the agitator design to have a large mixing capacity
I actually have 2 agitator blades one for small batches & one for large batches
 
However the cheap dog clip mod is simple enough and does the job just as well
(and between you and me its a lot quicker than a complete blade change)

With rest times for my pallet light roasted beans need a longer rest time (but thats just me)
You on the other hand may like it at a different point and that will only be known when you experiment to find your personal WOW moment

Congrats again on discovering more uses & more versatility of the roaster

KK

Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #4 on: 06/05/2011, 04:49 PM »
Loaded 600gm of green today.  Preheat on thaw with beans for 5 mins, then full power...

Went to make a sandwich, came back 5 mins later (I wasn't far away don't panic), ate sandwich... peered in... umm they look green still.  12 mins had passed on full power.  1st Crack at 20 mins (I nearly fell asleep waiting!!!!!)  That is the slowest roast I've done yet!  I got a bit of smoke around 25mins, a few snaps of SC so I pulled it and cooled.

Not very even but they where Ethiopia Gambella Sundried.  The blade was struggling a tad now and again, but I did play about with it for my 100gm batch and lowered it slightly because beans where being missed by it completely.  Doubt that was the issue because the beans where moving well.

My KKTO has never been very good at batches over 500gm (others can do 800gms no worries), the previous good big batches I removed the element guard (but nearly set fire to a towel when removing the TO so I put it back on).  Do you think my TO is just under powered?  It is a Tiffany model bought with the KKTO.  I noticed TOs in the shops have 1200 -1400 watts on them.  Maybe I just got a Friday one!?  Also when I did use a temperature probe I would always get fluctuations in the temp when the element was kicking on and off, even when I was roasting 500gm and the probe was burried in beans.  That's why I gave up with it and sold it.  Maybe that points to a problem?

I'm seriously considering a new TO, just to see if that fixes my problems roasting bigger batches.  If so does anyone have any recommendations regarding brand and the heating element type?  I know that Gra bought a new one but found his old one had a better power output which is kinda why I'm asking.

I really want to get bigger batches going now for the espresso side of things because I have a few neighbours asking for fresh roasted.  They really need to be converted from supermarket beans :)

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #5 on: 06/05/2011, 04:57 PM »
Its an option to try another Turbo Oven model
The Tiffany is also 1200/1400 watts

If you do try another, get one with a light
It would be better for night roasting

Bypassing the ON/OFF thermostat is also an option but the usual electrical safety rules need to be observed

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #6 on: 06/05/2011, 05:58 PM »
AM will beat me around the head if I play with the electrics ;)  As I mentioned to you before I've done every mod known to retain heat so I'm seriously thinking it's the TO that's just underpowered.  I also thought about cutting out the centre of the guard, so the element is still protected, but it might help stimulate more air flow?  Thoughts?

So what do they call the ones with the light, it's a glass looking element isn't it?  I see a local retailer has TOs on special for $48.  Might be worth a look.  night roasting would be cool, and the smoke would keep the mozzies away. :)

If I get this sorted I can finally get roasting whatever I damn well please, small or big batches!  :)  Go the KKTO! :)

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #7 on: 06/05/2011, 06:09 PM »
Its possible that the TO is not performing to spec
I have no control over its thermostat performance so for $48 bucks its a cheap upgrade

Did you see me roasting at Troy's at the meet & greet ??
I have not modified the guard on my TO

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #8 on: 06/05/2011, 08:38 PM »
Cool. $59-95.  Will see if the local store has one in stock.

If it's better the Tiffany can do the cakes !!! :)

Gra

  • Barista
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • Gender: Male
  • Sleep is a symptom of caffeine deprivation
KKTO
« Reply #9 on: 07/05/2011, 03:48 PM »
Loaded 600gm of green today.  Preheat on thaw with beans for 5 mins, then full power...

Went to make a sandwich, came back 5 mins later (I wasn't far away don't panic), ate sandwich... peered in... umm they look green still.  12 mins had passed on full power.  1st Crack at 20 mins (I nearly fell asleep waiting!!!!!)  That is the slowest roast I've done yet!  I got a bit of smoke around 25mins, a few snaps of SC so I pulled it and cooled.

Not very even but they where Ethiopia Gambella Sundried.  The blade was struggling a tad now and again, but I did play about with it for my 100gm batch and lowered it slightly because beans where being missed by it completely.  Doubt that was the issue because the beans where moving well.

My KKTO has never been very good at batches over 500gm (others can do 800gms no worries), the previous good big batches I removed the element guard (but nearly set fire to a towel when removing the TO so I put it back on).  Do you think my TO is just under powered?  It is a Tiffany model bought with the KKTO.  I noticed TOs in the shops have 1200 -1400 watts on them.  Maybe I just got a Friday one!?  Also when I did use a temperature probe I would always get fluctuations in the temp when the element was kicking on and off, even when I was roasting 500gm and the probe was burried in beans.  That's why I gave up with it and sold it.  Maybe that points to a problem?

I'm seriously considering a new TO, just to see if that fixes my problems roasting bigger batches.  If so does anyone have any recommendations regarding brand and the heating element type?  I know that Gra bought a new one but found his old one had a better power output which is kinda why I'm asking.

I really want to get bigger batches going now for the espresso side of things because I have a few neighbours asking for fresh roasted.  They really need to be converted from supermarket beans :)

I have 3 all different brands but only the old girl is marked 1400 watt the rest are 1300-1400 and 1300 on the label and nether of those perform like the old girl....

I suggest that if you are looking for a new one make sure it states that it's 1400watt mines is a CookingEssentials..the others are a GVA 1200-1400 and a Encore 1300 it's the won that I cook with.

Cheers Gra..
IZZO Alex Duetto II Eureka Mondail MDM breville Smart grinder Knock box drawer Bumper stand 58mm Concept-Art & Demaral tampers 18g  VST basket synesso  basket Naked Porter filter 750ml Motto  500ml Motto jugs Turbo Roaster  Behmor

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #10 on: 07/05/2011, 05:13 PM »
Well I got a homewell 1300w halogen today.  The light is very useful.  Currently doing a new 250 def 5 min run the. I will do a 600gm roast of java. :). Will post the results.  $60 they had heaps and it was close by. ;)

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #11 on: 07/05/2011, 05:31 PM »
Well I got a homewell 1300w halogen today.  The light is very useful.  Currently doing a new 250 def 5 min run the. I will do a 600gm roast of java. :). Will post the results.  $60 they had heaps and it was close by. ;)

As I get older my sight is also degrading
Just started to use reading glasses  :o

Thats why I like the light feature
Hearing is still as sharp as ever

Keep us Crema members updated on the new TO progress

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #12 on: 07/05/2011, 06:00 PM »
Well it was preheated to 250deg.  I cooled it a bit for 5 mins.  Beans in 250deg, fc at 16 mins into etc at 17ish and rsc at 20-21mins.  The light is good but bright and made the beans look lighter.  Something to get used too.

Seems I'm still learning my KKTO.  Anyone got any further tips?

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #13 on: 07/05/2011, 06:26 PM »
Well it was preheated to 250deg.  I cooled it a bit for 5 mins.  Beans in 250deg, fc at 16 mins into etc at 17ish and rsc at 20-21mins.  The light is good but bright and made the beans look lighter.  Something to get used too.

Seems I'm still learning my KKTO.  Anyone got any further tips?

Pre Heat empty roaster
Dont cool it or rest so heat is reduced
Dump beans in & roast
Keep at 250 max while roasting

Burp if necessary after rolling first crack (depends of green bean weight if its necessary at all)

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #14 on: 07/05/2011, 07:04 PM »
What's a normal preheat temp?  I only cooled because I was running the new to at 250 def do 5 or so mins.  I thought 250 might be too high for the beans.

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #15 on: 07/05/2011, 07:44 PM »
What's a normal preheat temp?  I only cooled because I was running the new to at 250 def do 5 or so mins.  I thought 250 might be too high for the beans.

I preheat at 250 deg for the time it takes to prepare and set up (approx 5 min)
Wrap the outside of the roaster with your fire blanket
Start the agitator, lift the TO, add beans, & start roasting
By lifting the TO you will loose approx 20 deg

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

borat123

  • Java Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
  • Gender: Male
KKTO
« Reply #16 on: 07/06/2011, 01:41 PM »
I've got a Tiffany (solid element) which I think is the same as what ships with the KKTO.   Un mod'd it handled up to about 700gms without any problem.   All the usual stuff, Eg blue silicon tubing, towel wrap, heat sheild off and plugged direct into the wall socket etc.

Mod'd ala Frankenturbo (relay for switching the element on & off), it does 1.2kgs easily, and the motor has now become the limitation rather than the heating producing capacity of the element.

The KKTO thread on CS has some pics.  I'll see if I can find the link.

Roasting now as I type, 1kg Flores Gunera Inerie.   Anyone tried this?




Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #17 on: 07/06/2011, 05:38 PM »
1.2kg!!!!!!!  Nice one mate!

I must admit that I got better results with the heat shield off the element, but  then I accidently put it down on a the towel I was using... Yep you know what happened, so put it back on.

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #18 on: 08/06/2011, 05:56 PM »
Well I do love the new TO just for the light.  Performance is the same really.  Maybe I need to drill the holes a little bigger or cut a hole or something?

Just not sure if it's the heat from the element or the airflow that needs sorting?  I did a 500gm batch in 16 mins to RSC last time I had the guard off which was a big improvement.  The difference was amazing.  I would like to do bigger 600gm batches now I have someone asking for beans. :)

Koffee Kosmo

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 4407
  • Gender: Male
  • Espresso Yourself
    • koffeekosmo.com
KKTO
« Reply #19 on: 08/06/2011, 07:42 PM »

Just not sure if it's the heat from the element or the airflow that needs sorting?  I did a 500gm batch in 16 mins to RSC last time I had the guard off which was a big improvement.  The difference was amazing.  I would like to do bigger 600gm batches now I have someone asking for beans. :)

The only way one can do 1kg + on a KKTO is to modify the Turbo Ovens thermostat so it does not cycle, but temp can be adjusted manually at the operators prerogative

Just like the way Borat has done it  or simply have a variac fitted

I have 2 other designs in the works
One for expert home roasters and as a commercial sample roaster
One for commercial use eg to be used as a small shop roaster  (no TO in this design as its inbuilt)

Both will have infinite heat control and infinite profile settings manual or user stored

However I dont want to mortgage the house to do it
Any backers out there

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Mazzer Robur conical grinder Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster:

Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

borat123

  • Java Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
  • Gender: Male
KKTO
« Reply #20 on: 08/06/2011, 11:28 PM »
Here's the link with pics and info:

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1292925707/5

Less than $20 bucks in parts for the mod, but you'll need someone electrically qualified to do the turbo oven rewiring for you.

After the mod, roasting larger batches is much easier, just set and forget until it gets to 1C.

Having the element manually switchable makes a huge difference to the batch size you'll be able to roast.

Lacehim

  • Old Coffee Fella
  • ******
  • Posts: 2090
  • Gender: Male
  • NS Oscar|BSG|KKTO
KKTO
« Reply #21 on: 09/06/2011, 09:27 AM »
Not trying to give away too many secrets, but just a tip for those of you out there looking to manage profile or "S" curve roasting.

Many of you have read the theories on endo/exo-thermic transitions of the bean during roasting cycle - so I wont repeat it here.

To manage around these transitions, you need to consider "lag effect".

If you want to move more carefully between the endo/exo stages, you need to play with your heat or airflow in the lead up to the stage, e.g. anticipate when first crack is about to happen and slow the thermal momentum down before reaching it, e.g. not much good doing it once it has started, etc.

Similarly, a common mistake made by some people is they "back off" once FC is underway, only to stall when the FC Exo-thermic stage is over and the beans are once again taking in heat. It's only natural for people to think or act this way - what they see and hear.

In other words, take your actions "before" the stages so that you can move through with control, rather than trying to respond as the thermal lag built-up within the beans are only just starting to "display" mostly once it's too late.

Of course, this all depends upon your roasting equipment and how responsive it can be to your "controls" - try to develop an understanding of the lag affect for your roasting device.



I was pretty interested in this information by mycuppa, but no one seemed to comment on it.  Would this be useful for the KKTO or is it too small to have a noticeable lag effect as per mycuppa's post?  I suppose not having control if the heat/fan separately would be an issue, but Borat seems to have found a solution to that.

I really think it's interesting to have a commerical roasting helping in the forums so that we can better understand the art of good coffee roasting.  Thanks to mycuppa.

Here's the link with pics and info:

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1292925707/5

Less than $20 bucks in parts for the mod, but you'll need someone electrically qualified to do the turbo oven rewiring for you.

After the mod, roasting larger batches is much easier, just set and forget until it gets to 1C.

Having the element manually switchable makes a huge difference to the batch size you'll be able to roast.

Borat, I'm just trying to understand what your mod does.  So basically your element is now on 100% all the time until you turn it off is that right?  It no longer pulses on and off like a standard TO?  Would be interested in modifying my spare TO.

Is it possible to post up a parts list and a electrical diagram so that I can better understand what's involved?  At least then I can show a sparky what is required and he might understand what I'm on about. :)

hiphipharrar

  • Senior Barista
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
  • Gender: Male
KKTO
« Reply #22 on: 09/06/2011, 09:55 AM »
I was pretty interested in this information by mycuppa, but no one seemed to comment on it.  Would this be useful for the KKTO or is it too small to have a noticeable lag effect as per mycuppa's post? 

I don't know about too small but I think that better heat control os needed and something KK has considered. I would hope he will at some stage provide pre-modded turbo ovens. I'd be happy to try it but I'm not electrically competent enough to mod one myself.

That said, I get great roasts from my KKTO and I note that the temp ramp drops off before first crack anyway. It's the gap between first and second that I have most trouble controlling and this gap tends to be a matter of a couple of minutes rather than the usual 4-6 mins. This is where direct control would be better.

But I'm getting great tasting roasts.

borat123

  • Java Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
  • Gender: Male
KKTO
« Reply #23 on: 09/06/2011, 10:32 AM »
Borat, I'm just trying to understand what your mod does.  So basically your element is now on 100% all the time until you turn it off is that right?  It no longer pulses on and off like a standard TO?  Would be interested in modifying my spare TO.

Is it possible to post up a parts list and a electrical diagram so that I can better understand what's involved?  At least then I can show a sparky what is required and he might understand what I'm on about. :)

Hi mate,  after the mod, the element is off unless you switch it on.  Instead of setting a temp and waiting for the TO to cycle on and off (often when you don't want it to),  you simply have a switch to manually turn the element on or off.    Much better control from 1C to 2C, and much more heat available for larger roasts as you can leave the element switched on for as long as you like.

Full disassemby of the TO is needed to remove the timer, and the relay fits nicely into the space created.    I don't have a wiring diagram as I had an electrician do mine, but the wiring changes were pretty simple.   I used a 12/240 relay from Jaycar, and a 12V inline switch from there too.    You will also need an old power pack (mobile phone charger or calculator etc) to power the switching side of the relay.

I'll see if I can find the links to the jaycar part for you.



Dry bean.

  • Global Moderator
  • Old Coffee Fella
  • *****
  • Posts: 1713
  • Gender: Male
  • Bezerra Galatea - Mazzer Mini - La Pavoni Lever
KKTO
« Reply #24 on: 09/06/2011, 11:35 AM »


But what about this... At 9000 Euro its a steel, but shipping would kill ya  ;D ;D ;D





Crikey, wouldn't the Aussie OH&S people have a field day with the fully exposed drive belt and chain. ::)
Cheers,

Dry Bean.

Old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill. (Willie Nelson)

Coffee Curators

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
4286 Views
Last post 15/12/2010, 03:21 PM
by askthe coffeeguy
67 Replies
24323 Views
Last post 27/03/2012, 11:33 PM
by Koffee Kosmo
11 Replies
9531 Views
Last post 29/06/2016, 06:28 PM
by galumay
117 Replies
31285 Views
Last post 25/01/2012, 02:26 PM
by Lacehim
24 Replies
14064 Views
Last post 30/12/2011, 10:55 PM
by borat123