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Author Topic: Brazil Daterra Sweet  (Read 6673 times)

CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« on: 02/11/2015, 10:48 AM »
Hi

Wondering if anyone has some experience roasting this bean from Ministry Grounds on the Behmor Plus?
I've just done 2kg of it, with not a single drinkable roast.
With a 200g charge I've tried fast P1 auto profile then power drop at FC to P2-manual (25%) leading to scorching and charring, presumably too much heat between drying and FC. I then slowed the ramp down using P4-manual (75%) and got a grainy dull baked smell and taste.  I've also tried a lot of other permutations such as super slow roasts on P5 auto profile to no avail.

Anyway if anyone has some pointers as to how to roast this bean, generally or in the B1600+ would be greatly appreciated.





steve82

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #1 on: 02/11/2015, 01:31 PM »
Its definitely a tricky coffee to roast. I have no direct experience with behmor other than what I have seen / read of it.

My gut tells me the direct radiant heat will not suit this bean very well. I am tending to stay away from Brazils these days as I find them very finicky to roast close to my liking, challenging is good, but for me the result is not worth it. I find Kenyans to be challenging to roast, but with much more exciting results.

Anyway FWIW, in small solid drum, QuestM3 I settled on a very gentle long roast 16 to 17min.
No application of heat at start, gentle application of heat till yellow, then steadily decline until about 45sec to a minute after first crack ended = 2 or 3 degrees rise in temp from end of first crack temp.
Overall % of roast time from first crack to finish was around 21%, so quite a gentle finish, medium looking roast.

Long dry, long ramp and stretched first crack.


How would one achieve this on Behmore ???


Dragging out the roast for extended periods after the end of first crack is a great way to kill Brazil beans,
especially if they experience a rise in temperature ROR.

 
Another way to look at it, if you wanted a darker roast say just starting second crack. You want to get to first crack a bit faster, so that there there is more of a difference between the inner and outer bean allowing a longer time to be spent between start of first crack and second without killing it.

To achieve this with sensitive beans I would use the lowest power setting profile possible (to avoid scorching the precious ) and play with reducing batch size to get acceptable roast times. Which means you can achieve faster roast times but at low environment temps.

Sometimes roasting =  :tearhair:








CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #2 on: 02/11/2015, 03:50 PM »
Thanks Steve82 for some very insightful pointers! Some of the ideas you've raised are what I've been pondering but it is good to have some sensible baseline advice.

Up until these challenging Brazils, I have been able to just calibrate the weight up or down to respectively slow down or speed up the roast on the Behmor, and just run the Behmor at full power for the dry and ramp, then the drop to 25% power for the stretch, which without proper BT logging is hard to say what RoR but typically will get to second in 3-5 mins with this approach, so a sensible choice of power for this point. But the Brazils don't like this calibration approach, I suspect they don't like the chamber's maximum temp getting too hot...  Or what you allude to around the direct radiant heat, maybe too much is too much, regardless of charge weight...

Do you know roughly when end of drying occurs for your Brazils, for the 16-17 minute roast time you mention? 

Cheers

steve82

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #3 on: 02/11/2015, 05:56 PM »
I would achieve full yellow around 7.5 - 8min, followed by a gentle 5 - 5.5min ramp to first crack, then 20% post first crack development time ends up being 3 - 3.5min with the last 1 - 1.5min approaching ROR 0 ( the roast slowing stalling out on latent heat)

GaryatGala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #4 on: 03/11/2015, 10:50 PM »
I find Brazils is tricky to roast than a lot of beans.

A decent drying phase is important, and for Brazils, you dont want to spend too much time caramelizing after first crack.

Perhaps have a look at Sweet Maria,s Coffee Shrub/Roasting Fundamentals/An Approach To Roasting Brazils.
Do keep in mind they are referring to sample roasting batches, which may be identical to most Behmor sized batches.
Having said that, roasting 500-600 gm on the corettos do benefit from a decent drying phase and does result in more sweetness and body.
I tasted a 400gm yellow bourbon from a Behmor, very enjoyable.
Try Steve,s suggestion. Looks good.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
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Brett H

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #5 on: 04/11/2015, 04:32 PM »
I always loved the Brazilian Beans but haven't had a great one for a few years and the others have not roasted as well as I remember.  I wonder if the beans being sourced are as good as previous?
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CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #6 on: 04/11/2015, 05:42 PM »
Thanks for your responses gents. Looking over my old roast notes I see I had some success with a slow roast on another batch of this bean pretty much hitting the same timings as Steve82 suggests. This time around the only thing I've done differently  is a 25% power application in the stretch, last time I used my standard 30 sec power pause after FC, then 50 % power for a minute or so. I wonder if this lower heat after first stalled it out perhaps. It had that horrid thin, grainy taste.

I'm motivated to give this another try now. This approach also ties in nicely with the coffee shrub article suggesting don't take too long to get into second.

I like a challenge but this one is becoming pathological! I guess I just want to learn what things to change in my roast,  to correct defects I pick up in the cup.

Given from the comments here Brazils have a reputation for being difficult and perhaps not even worth the trouble, I might return to my Ethiopians after this batch is gone.

GaryatGala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #7 on: 04/11/2015, 09:49 PM »
Why dont you try the Peru?
Easy bean to roast and cups very well.
The Colombian is another one that is easy to roast.
You could blend the two together even.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #8 on: 04/11/2015, 10:10 PM »
Brazils are not at all that hard to roast so I would not believe everything that people might say - including those so-called gods of wisdom over in that far away place with their toys.

If you want something challenging to roast - try Monsoon coffees or Decafs (although decafs are something I thoroughly enjoy roasting, but for others it can be their un-doing). Even some of the more exotic Ethiopian naturals or a super-fresh Sumatran FOTB literally dripping in moisture are tricky as are a tough as titanium Kenyans that wants to crash after first crack with ultra wild swings between exo and endo thermic.

For an origin that dwarfs all others by orders of magnitude Brazils are not difficult. Brazils feature prominently in literally every roaster's portfolio.

In terms of quality - Brazils, like almost every other origin, continues to improve at astonishing rates so I would not take the fact that declining quality on a year-to-year basis is any contributing factor, or drought, etc.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the Brazil specialty segment is approaching a size that is bigger than entire other origins and Brazil has the ability (infrastructure and resources) to continue to do so at improved rates assuming climate change does not pose greater problems than it has done already and will continue to in the future.

Brazil is turning out spectacular coffees and Daterra are in the upper segment of that quality quadrant.



steve82

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #9 on: 05/11/2015, 12:30 PM »
Brazils are not at all that hard to roast so I would not believe everything that people might say - including those so-called gods of wisdom over in that far away place with their toys.

With all due respect and appreciation for your informative posts, I have no doubt that this is most definitely true for you, roasting on large modern high tech commercial gear. Its not a matter of belief, the fact is yes we are just playing with our little toys and trying to get the best from them.

If you want something challenging to roast - try Monsoon coffees or Decafs (although decafs are something I thoroughly enjoy roasting, but for others it can be their un-doing). Even some of the more exotic Ethiopian naturals or a super-fresh Sumatran FOTB literally dripping in moisture are tricky as are a tough as titanium Kenyans that wants to crash after first crack with ultra wild swings between exo and endo thermic.

I also really like roasting decaf and can repeatedly get great results. I also avoid Sumatrans for the reasons you describe, they are definitely hard to roast. All my experience with Kenyans are exactly as you describe and I find this very challenging to deal with.

For an origin that dwarfs all others by orders of magnitude Brazils are not difficult. Brazils feature prominently in literally every roaster's portfolio.

In terms of quality - Brazils, like almost every other origin, continues to improve at astonishing rates so I would not take the fact that declining quality on a year-to-year basis is any contributing factor, or drought, etc.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the Brazil specialty segment is approaching a size that is bigger than entire other origins and Brazil has the ability (infrastructure and resources) to continue to do so at improved rates assuming climate change does not pose greater problems than it has done already and will continue to in the future.

Brazil is turning out spectacular coffees and Daterra are in the upper segment of that quality quadrant.

Yes agreed I have had some very enjoyable cups from Brazil over the last couple of years, more so from commercial roasters than my own hand. The Daterra that is being discussed in this thread is also a very nice coffee, it just requires a very delicate approach - which can be tricky roasting with toys.

CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #10 on: 07/11/2015, 06:24 AM »
Interesting to hear the perspective from the commercial side of things! But yes as Steve82 said these comments probably more in the context of little home roasting toys, however if a Quest M3 is a toy then I don't know makes my little battling Behmor.

I spoke to Neil at MG about these beans and from what I could gather he thought they were a cinch. He hits FC at around 8 mins which I found flabbergasting. Obviously the commercial drum setup affords him a lot more control which I simply don't have, roasting with the Behmor is pure roasting by the senses. And very limited visuals. Works alright with most of the Ethiopian DPs I've tried, hard with Brazils.

I had another Brazil, Fazenda Aurea, lying around this week and gave it a shot with the long slow gentle approach. After 4 mins dev time after FC on 50% power I pulled them and some pieces still had chaff affixed, and there was still mottling! So I went and rummaged back through my scraggly notes on this bean and sure enough I've written it takes/needs a lot more heat in the ramp than usual for Brazils, much more than I applied anyway. Probably another batch for the bin. Ah roasting.....

CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #11 on: 07/11/2015, 06:46 AM »
GaryAtGala I will try a Peru actually,  have never done so before. Typically I will do a big order of greens, and say half of it will be stuff I know how to roast, while the other half will be stuff to challenge me, so I can learn more. 

Brett H

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #12 on: 07/11/2015, 10:20 AM »
Great thread guys.  You've convinced me to revisit Brazilians (stay on target....) with my next order.  I loved them back when I was a popcorn coffee roaster and when I first built the BBQ roaster but in recent years have been less enamoured compared to other beans.  I'll order a few different varieties and give them a shot over Chistmas.... It'll be a fun project which I reckon home coffee enthusiasts need from time to time to maintain their amateur (to love) status.
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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #13 on: 07/11/2015, 11:10 AM »
My own experience using commercial drum batch roasters is that brazils as a general group are no harder to nail than anything else VS that everything we roast in our professional 100 gram sample roaster (also a drum by the way) is much more difficult for obvious reasons due to size / speed / control of the roast....

Note there is a VAST difference between what we call "brazils" as a group, and each has to be approached for what it is, in the particular roasting appliance being used.

And yes, brazils are very valuable in the coffee roasters arsenal of coffees to blend, and the really good ones are great on their own.

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steve82

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #14 on: 07/11/2015, 11:37 AM »
Interesting to hear the perspective from the commercial side of things! But yes as Steve82 said these comments probably more in the context of little home roasting toys, however if a Quest M3 is a toy then I don't know makes my little battling Behmor.

I spoke to Neil at MG about these beans and from what I could gather he thought they were a cinch. He hits FC at around 8 mins which I found flabbergasting. Obviously the commercial drum setup affords him a lot more control which I simply don't have, roasting with the Behmor is pure roasting by the senses. And very limited visuals. Works alright with most of the Ethiopian DPs I've tried, hard with Brazils.


Yeah it all comes down to context of ones own apparatus. One can read, talk and try to imitate. It all comes down to the dynamics of what your using. 

Type of heat, how its applied, the effieniecy or inefficiency of the materials that make up the drum or what ever the beans are roasting in. Airflow and more important the design of the airflow path through the roaster.

This reminded me of a post by mycuppa summing up roasting really well from earlier in the year.

Generally speaking, for a drum roaster using direct heat source the air temp needs to be at least 20 Deg C above the bean temp in order to maintain thermal momentum. In the earlier stages of the roast, that differential needs to be greater.

This concept applies for most of the smaller drum roasters from Probat, Geisen, Has Garanti, Proaster, etc. where the heat is applied in close proximity to the drum - either a controlled distance or via the deflector shield.

Drum roasters using indirect heat source, e.g. oven or hot-box, etc. are in effect air roasting and this type of roasting requires a much higher air temperature, e.g. 400 - 500 Deg C.

Of course, all this depends upon thermocouple placements, etc. and the individual design of the roasting platform.

Without knowing anything about your HotTop, it would be interesting to target a 13 - 15 minute roast and see what difference you discover. This may require a reduction of batch size in order to reach those targets. It may also be impossible due to inadequate power.

If your roaster principally uses convection rather than conduction, the general rule of thumb is shorter roast times for convection and longer roast times for conduction. The reasons these rules (and I use the word rule very loosely) seem to make sense is due to the way in which heat is transferred into the core of the bean. If you try shorter roast times with a higher level of conduction, you will risk scorching and tipping. If you try longer roast times using convection you risk baking.

Finding the ideal range takes a lot of trial and error. Every roasting platform is different.


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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #15 on: 07/11/2015, 04:14 PM »
Just to clarify - the reference to the word "toys" was not intended to be taken as anything negative - it was made in the context that the elevated or revered status applied those US sources - which I tend to see often quoted at times -  are not necessarily a useful reference point.......as they are using different appliances or dealing with different variables.

Which of course is alluded to in the above post this one.

As FC has indicated - take every situation as a unique or individual problem to solve.

Sometimes trying to match or imitate can blind your ability to solve roasting problems - which is why I tend to think of everything else as a toy and not applicable to my own roasting challenges... a way of keeping an open mind.





steve82

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #16 on: 07/11/2015, 04:32 PM »

Sometimes trying to match or imitate can blind your ability to solve roasting problems - which is why I tend to think of everything else as a toy and not applicable to my own roasting challenges... a way of keeping an open mind.

Gold  :thumb:

Dry bean.

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #17 on: 08/11/2015, 11:14 AM »
Morning all, yep I'm still around, as usual have been on the move again ::)

This is a timely thread, recently received an order from Coffee Snobs, part of it was 2.5kg of Brazil Pulped Natural.

I'm due to roast a batch, so, will make this the bean of choice and let you know how it went after the event. :)
Cheers,

Dry Bean.

Old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill. (Willie Nelson)

Dry bean.

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #18 on: 08/11/2015, 01:21 PM »
Just finished the roast (2.5kg Brazil pulped natural.

As you can see by the pic, roasted a little uneven with a few shells evident, no major drama's, although it's a warm day here and it showed signs of taking off at one point.

The Bezzera is warming up at the moment, so will give my initial impression shortly.

Stacks of crema, as expected at this early stage, a bit on the harsh side, however quite drinkable, should improve over the next few days.

[img width=100
Cheers,

Dry Bean.

Old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill. (Willie Nelson)

GaryatGala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #19 on: 08/11/2015, 03:22 PM »
Still not a bad looking roast Dry Bean.
Reckon a longer drying phase may help in evening out the moisture content and eveness of temperature on the inner and outer part of the bean for Brazils.
The benefit also is the beans will go through the cracks together.

http://www.coffeeshrub.com/shrub/content/approach-roasting-brazils

Not sure if this resource would help. It helped me produce a roast that was significantly improved over previous.
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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #20 on: 09/11/2015, 11:57 AM »
Thanks Gary, reckon your right on the money re the longer drying phase, as I said the day was quite warm and the duration of the roast was a few mins shorter than my norm, will certainly keep it in mind for the next batch. :)
Cheers,

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Old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill. (Willie Nelson)

CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #21 on: 09/11/2015, 07:08 PM »
This thread has given me a lot of food for thought. The original comments from Steve82 about keeping the bean a little raw inside so one can get reasonable development time after FC has given me some ideas for future experimentation in the Behmor.  I  am playing around with reducing the charge weight so I, rather than the roaster, can decide how long I want to spend drying, and ramping to FC.  However since I've binned the whole 2 kilos of daterra, I've now moved on to the  Sumatran Tawa which I have posted some preliminary results in another appropriately titled thread. 

CoffeeWala

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #22 on: 12/11/2015, 08:57 AM »
I've decided to leave Brazils to the pros and have just ordered some Brazils off the mycuppa website.

Dry bean.

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Brazil Daterra Sweet
« Reply #23 on: 12/11/2015, 09:59 AM »
I've decided to leave Brazils to the pros and have just ordered some Brazils off the mycuppa website.

I've never had a problem with Brazilian beans CW, and, I'm certainly not a pro. :)
Cheers,

Dry Bean.

Old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill. (Willie Nelson)

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« Reply #24 on: 12/11/2015, 10:20 AM »
Just finished the roast (2.5kg Brazil pulped natural.

As you can see by the pic, roasted a little uneven with a few shells evident, no major drama's, although it's a warm day here and it showed signs of taking off at one point.

The Bezzera is warming up at the moment, so will give my initial impression shortly.

Stacks of crema, as expected at this early stage, a bit on the harsh side, however quite drinkable, should improve over the next few days.

[img width=100

Four days on and I'm now drinking this batch, has lost most of the initial harshness, still lots of crema and is drinking quite well, would give it about 7 out of 10.

Chocolate? nope, floral notes? nope, citrus? nope, however it does taste like pretty good coffee.  :stir
Cheers,

Dry Bean.

Old age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill. (Willie Nelson)

Bezzera

 

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