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Author Topic: What Is Your KKTO Technique?  (Read 16669 times)

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« on: 22/06/2013, 12:33 PM »
Would like to share my current technique on the KKTO.

Previously used to burp the oven and turn down the heat setting (to 225 deg celcius on my oven) upon first crack stage. Then turn down further to 220 degrees halfway to second crack.

These days I found a better result if the heat dial was turned down a tad at the start of first crack( just under the max 250 deg mark) and just burp occasionally for air flow through from rolling first crack to start of second crack.

The cupping results seem to be better than the previous version.

Strictly hard beans are roasted on full heat from start. Others I start at 225 degrees then full heat when I see color change starting.

What are your thoughts and do you have your own way of roasting on the KKTO?


KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #1 on: 22/06/2013, 12:34 PM »
Want to say too that the beans appear to be a bit larger and I dont seem to get hardly any beans falling through the bean cooler.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

Koffee Kosmo

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #2 on: 23/06/2013, 10:03 PM »
I have experimented with several (100s) of methods
Some work with small roasts some work with large roasts

One of the Way Out experiments was to drop beans in at different intervals
Starting with hard beans first and softer beans afterwords
Still produced great roasts 

The method I regularly use now based on 700 gram roasts is
Preheat @ 250 deg C & generally at first cycle turn off
Add beans
Leave heat @ 250 deg C until 1st crack and the duration of the roast
Burp if needed after rolling first crack ( Bean dependant )

Smaller roasts can have a deferent technique as do pre mixed mixed bean roasts

Mixed bean roasts work best with a stabilising pre heat at the thaw setting up to 125 deg C for up to 5 minutes depending on the weight

**Based on a stock standard KKTO

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Robur & BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 4 Hand grinders:
Web site - www.koffeekosmo.com
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derrilex

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #3 on: 23/06/2013, 10:11 PM »
Rightly or wrongly, I pre heat at 250 for about 5 mins then drop back to 125 and add beans. Then I run for 10 mins at 125 then 250 until 1st C. I let it get a good rolling 1stC going before dropping back to 200 and burping for 15 seconds. Then after 1 minute at 200 I go back to 250 until 2nd. 1st is nearly always at 10.30 and second around 16 - 17 mins.

galumay

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #4 on: 23/06/2013, 10:21 PM »
I have a probe set up for bean temp, I preheat the empty roaster to 180deg for about 10 minutes for the first roast, drop 600g beans in and crank on full heat until first crack, I have the thermostat bypassed with a switch so I can keep applying full power, after first crack i flick the switch on and off to control the ROR (rate of rise) to about 5deg per minute, i usually hit 1C around 10 minutes after drop in and aim for about another 4 mins to 2C, I vacuum the beans into the cooler as soon as I am happy with the roast. (usually 10secs into 2C)
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Brett H

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #5 on: 23/06/2013, 10:35 PM »
My setup works best with 500-600g.  I preheat or 5 minutes with the thaw setting before ramping up to 250 and leaving it there.  I get a reasonable gap between cracks and pretty good timing a and consistency.  In think the key is to know your roaster really well.  No two will be identical. 
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

hiphipharrar

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #6 on: 24/06/2013, 08:44 AM »
My method for espresso roasts is to preheat to 140 degrees (or 150 in winter) with thermostat pointing to about 130 on the TO . My usual batch size is 500 or 600g.

After I load and the temp starts to climb again, I increase the thermo  to maintain a fairly constant 10 - 12 degree ramp to first crack. By the time it reaches 120 deg the thermo is at 100%

Just before FC, I start to back off the heat. The lag means it won't start to ramo down until the onset of FC . I then maintain a 4 -5 degree ramp to second crack and dump the roast usually at the start of 2C and always before the onset of rolling 2C.

I no longer burp the KKTO but lift the TO handle instead to turn off the heat if the temp doesn't drop quickly enough when FC is reached.

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #7 on: 27/06/2013, 11:36 PM »
Thanks to everyone for your input.  :thumb:

After a few roasts with full heat right throughout with burping between first til end of roast ala KK, the result in the cup is more cleaner with less smokey flavours coming from smoke taint.

In essence, I was trying to mimic professional drum roasting.
Ie. Introduce higher air flow after first crack to allow flavour development together with a gap between cracks.

On my covered coretto, the same style applies.
Medium fan speed with decent amount of heat prior to 1st C, then high fan speed with lower heat setting thereafter.

The only main difference is that the fan speed on the turbo oven is the same throughout the roast.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

UNM

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #8 on: 28/06/2013, 02:39 PM »
 :exclaim:

After I load and the temp starts to climb again, I increase the thermo  to maintain a fairly constant 10 - 12 degree ramp to first crack.
How low does the temp  go before it starts to ramp back up?
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hiphipharrar

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #9 on: 28/06/2013, 04:47 PM »
Quote
How low does the temp  go before it starts to ramp back up?

Depends on the temp at loading and the ambient temp, but usually down to around low 50s, or mid to low 70s if the roaster is still warm from the previous roast.

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #10 on: 30/06/2013, 03:21 PM »
Will try all your profiles and report back.

My next one will be the thaw at 120 deg ( corresponds to 140 measured at the DMM), put in beans,  then increase heat in steps on the dial til bean temp at 120 deg with the dial at max. Does that sound right hiphipharrar?

Have you tasted the difference between lifting the handle method and the burping method?


KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

hiphipharrar

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #11 on: 30/06/2013, 04:27 PM »
Roughly. I don't use the Thaw setting. I set it between 125 and 150 deg C  for the preheat. Actually, I could be running it full bore by the time it reaches somewhere between 100 and 120 deg C Depending on the batch size. I usually reach FC by 14-15 mins from min. temp.
I haven't done any comparative taste tests between burping and lifting; just lifting the handle is easier. If I time the drop in temp right the handle is only lifted briefly and to help overcome the tendency for the temp to ramp up when the beans go exothermic during FC. You just have to be careful not to stall the roast.

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #12 on: 26/08/2013, 10:30 AM »
So far my best results for medium grown beans have been a drop in temperature of 200 then drying phase at 220 til 6minutes later turn up heat to max 250 on the dial which has a measured internal environment temp of 275-280 measured by a probe.
I maintain maximum setting and commence burping just before first crack til the end of the roast which is generally 3 to 4 minutes after FC.

Heat settings for SHB (strictly hard bean) are 200 preheat then maximum from start til finish with burping as per medium grown beans.

KKTO has been modified by angled fan blades as well as removal of the heat guard.
So far so good and the times are generally in the 17 minute ballpark.

Anyone else care to share their own way? 8)
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

borat123

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #13 on: 26/08/2013, 05:25 PM »
I have a halogen element with the switch mod, fan cover removed and a higher amperage power supply.

With a 1kg batch size (usual roast for me) I 'burn' the oven at about 200 for a few mins just to heat all the metal to the same temp and even things up a little.

I then drop the beans at 120 and pre-heat/dry for 5mins (usually it levels off at 60-70).

On my setup, a 1kg batch will ramp at between 8-10 dregs/min.  Around 5degs prior to FC I bring the ramp gradually back to around 3 dregs/min, then switch on /off to maintain that until the beans are vac'd out.

I can't remember the last time I wasn't happy with the results using this method - it's almost set and forget; at least until you get to FC.  It doesn't cause any charring, craters or tipping.

My setup won't ramp any faster than that with 1kg batches, but it would be nice to see what effect a faster ramp in the KKTO would have in the cup.   Re drop temps I've tried varying between 60-140 but couldn't taste any difference.


GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #14 on: 21/09/2014, 10:47 AM »
I,m interested to find out if anyone has measured the environmental temperature in their KKTO whilst roasting?
I,m forever always finding ways to roast coffee beans in the most optimum way possible.
My probe is slightly innacurate, but it shows 330 degrees celcius if the dial is on 250.
Curious to find out what yours read.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

Koffee Kosmo

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #15 on: 18/10/2014, 12:17 PM »
I,m interested to find out if anyone has measured the environmental temperature in their KKTO whilst roasting?
I,m forever always finding ways to roast coffee beans in the most optimum way possible.
My probe is slightly innacurate, but it shows 330 degrees celcius if the dial is on 250.
Curious to find out what yours read.

I have been waiting for some replies as well
As you all know I roast with the - Use my senses method -

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Robur & BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 4 Hand grinders:
Web site - www.koffeekosmo.com
Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Brett H

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #16 on: 18/10/2014, 01:02 PM »
I've only ever measured bean mass temp which correlates with what you'd expect to see from roasting coffee.
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #17 on: 18/10/2014, 01:02 PM »
After a number of numerous roasts under our belts, that,s what I do too, without probes and DMMs.
Was just that one day I decided to stick it in and read what the environmental temperature was, and compare with the roasting community,s findings.

Not sure if the high reading i got was the cause of the blue seal bubbling...

I,m still happy with the roast and cupping outcomes, as are the restaurant customers feedbacks.

Averaging 12.5-13min first crack.
16.30-16.45 min to first snaps of second crack
for 620gm batches.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #18 on: 18/10/2014, 01:03 PM »
Snap. U won Brett
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

Brett H

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #19 on: 18/10/2014, 01:12 PM »
Snap. U won Brett

It was a hollow victory as your post was better!
Diadema Junior Extra PID, La Pavoni Professional, Compak K10 Conical, Compak A8 Automatica, Fiorenzato F5, Rancilio Rocky, Behmor 1600, BBQ Roaster (retired), KKTO

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #20 on: 22/07/2015, 11:32 PM »
Last weekend I roasted 1kg batch each of Colombian, Indian and Peru for a total of 3 kg on my KKTO using a KK inspired heat shield modified Cookwell turbo oven on a fine 18 degree saturday.
The KKTO was also  fire blanket insulated. Previously it was double insulated. This time it,s four layered to double the effectiveness.

Four holes was created on the heat shield using the holesaw. For some reason the holesaw did not achieve the desired result. It just could not cut through and only created smoke and sparks. Perhaps the heat it created actually made the metal tougher.
I finished the job using  the biggest drill bit available and butchered each hole until the desired effect. Not quite as refined as KK,s but was the right diameter.

A ET (environmental temperature)reading was made using a probe via multimeter.
Fully heated, the temperature stabilized at 252 C with the tip of the probe down where the beans would be. This was with the oven also directly plugged into the wall and no extension cables nor power boards used, just in case there would be any voltage variations.
After 10 minute warm ups, each 1 kg batch of greens were loaded at full heat, went through what seems to be a loong stretched out roast. They all reached first crack at 19.5- 20 minutes and start of second crack 5 minutes later for a 25 minute roast.
No burping used and full heat was used right through.

The appearance of the finished results look good and does not look baked.
Cupping them today after a few days rest resulted in a smooth, medium bodied, chocolatey, medium acidity but somewhat flat and origin character muted.
The inherent sweetness however was there and never saw the need to add sugar.

My next mission is to remove the guard completely and see if the roast can come down to around 20-21 minutes.
If not, then will look for a more expensive oven.

So far I am still enjoying the KKTO, but it feels there,s more tweaking to be done and room to improve so that  the roaster environmental temperature can be increased.

Any recommendations or advice?
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

Koffee Kosmo

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #21 on: 23/07/2015, 09:22 AM »
Good looking roast Gary
Just remember not to apply roast profiles / times from other roasters to the KKTO
It roasts in its own unique way and the results are extremely enjoyable to drink

To get more cycle control on the TO Gary - get an electrician to isolate the thermostat with a 2 way switch ( e.g. Position 1 Heat ON always - Possition 2 thermostat cycle control )
 

Get a good bean and a KKTO roast will bring out every ounce of favour

The KKTO just produces fantastic roasts   :thumb: and I must be be close to 3000 roasts or over and Gary must be close behind me as he does 3 to 4 back to back roasts on most ocassions

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Robur & BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 4 Hand grinders:
Web site - www.koffeekosmo.com
Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

GaryatGala

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #22 on: 23/07/2015, 10:27 PM »
Thanks for the reassurance KK.

Certainly the KKTO in it,s current form is great for base beans due to it,s greater capacity. I tend to use it for the Brazilian and Colombian bases and the corettos for the minor percentages, of which are roasted with a shorter profile to highlight the brightness, acidity and origin character.
The KKTO I found is great for the  choc and cocoa bombs, as well as taming acidity due to it,s gentle manner of heating up the beans.

The coffee is still tasting great and a couple of the restaurant customers have given positive feedback on the current large batch KKTO beans.

Not sure about you KK, I was a relative latecomer to the roasting journey compared to some of the veterans here. Think was 2012 when I acquired the Brisbane Bezzera demo model...so can only have a guesstimate it has done around 1000 roasts at 2 kg a week, and the thing is still going strong apart from a change in blue rings and on the second turbo oven.

The first oven died from what I believe was excessive temperatures from the heat guard removal and angling of the fan blades.
Next weekend it,s guinea pig time with the removal of the heat guard but keeping the fan blades stock.
Will provide my feedback thereafter.
KKTO; FZ-RR700 Baby Roaster; triple  corettos; Simonelli Oscar; Compak K3T; Rancilio Silvia and Auber PID; 2 V60s; CCD; Aeropress; home made bean cooler and a blue worker sad sack of less than 10 kg of greens.
Work: Suzuki APV van. Honda EU65i. Compak K8. Expobar Elegance Compact. Roband pie warmer.

Koffee Kosmo

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #23 on: 24/07/2015, 04:27 PM »
Gary the KKTO was designed to be used with multiple heat sources
I note that you still use a BM / HG roaster

You can use the KK motor/pot section section in place of the BM unit with a Heat Gun - Open roasting
Or you can convert an old non working TO glass section to accept a Heat Gun as the heat source - Closed roasting

You will have the usual learning of  how to roast with any new equipment but 80% will be the same

KK
Bezzera Strega Lever: Robur & BNZ MD74 conical grinder
Pullman Barista Tamper Convex:  Designer of the KKTO Home Roaster: 4 Hand grinders:
Web site - www.koffeekosmo.com
Blog - http://koffeekosmo.blogspot.com

Lwowiak

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What Is Your KKTO Technique?
« Reply #24 on: 30/07/2015, 06:53 PM »
Hi Gary,
Thanks for sharing your 1kg results.
The largest size I have done on my KKTO is 800g. That ended up being a 19 minute roast, but did not reach second crack. I was roasting for plunger. No fire blanket used.
My usual roast size is 650 to 700g, and the times are first crack at around 13.5 to 14 minutes, and second crack at around 18 to 18.5 minutes. I am roasting blends, and have not tried larger amounts yet, as the yield fits perfectly into two bags. I have experimented with burping, but find there is no need, as the roast progresses nicely. I am currently using up all of my beans, so each blend differs in some way. More experiments will be conducted when I get some new beans.
I believe my KKTO can handle 1kg roasts with ease. My intention is to use the same blend, and roast 700g, 800g, 900g and 1kg. The times will be noted, and the roast stopped on second crack, or just a few seconds into it. For these weights, burping would probably stall the roast, so my intention is to just observe and record.
The main difference will be the ramp time to first crack. The larger the weight, the longer the time to first crack. The time between first and second should be in the four or five minute vicinity. Only by letting the roasts settle and  extensive tasting, can an analysis be made of which roast profile results in the best result in the cup.
From past experience, I believe the longer roasts will be smooth and mellow with lots of chocolate. I don't mind this result, but enjoy some fruitiness with caramel and toffee sweetness. I think my sweet spot will be in the 700-900g range.
If the beans you are using are from CS, then the results for your SO are similar in the cup to what I have found in the past. Smooth and mellow, good for a base, but requires the addition of other origins to achieve balance in the cup. As a SO espresso, rather bland, given the current choice of beans available elsewhere, albeit at a higher price.
The KKTO is great for pre roast blending, and the practice of a five minute pre roast "drying stage" at the lowest temp setting, helps ensure a nice even roast.
I still have a lot of testing to do with SO's on the KKTO. I find the Baby roaster produced better results for Yemen, with more fruit and berry flavours dominant, but as stated, I am still experimenting.
I have had great results with Indonesian beans, but am still searching for the one that will yield body and sweetness without too much earthiness and spice. In the baby roaster these "notes" were too dominant for my liking.
Overall, an excellent roasting platform.
My goal is to learn all the quirks of the roaster (ideal batch size, ramp times etc), and then fine tune my blend.

I think the Turbo Ovens are a perfect heat source for convection roasting, and a sweet, clean cup is achievable. I would be interested in the results in the cup from a heat gun source, and how much difference there is from the TO.
1 Grp Bosco; Macap M4D; Gino Rossi RR65; FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster, KKTO.

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