Tamping - A gentle guide (kind of)

[deleted]

yes method assumption is correct. And fair to say very quick. A lot faster than manual dosing and grind distributing. I know that ideally distribution and a 100 different things are great. But speed is also relevant in this industry, and not just quality. I love the art of coffee in all its complexity, theres just a certain point where theory and actuality dont sit side by side. The other dilemma I have with manual dosing ie; dose - tap - dose - tap - distribute -

[deleted]

I'd like to suggest that we move this argument to "Dose and grind cosistency - your view" I know I suggested the dose tap consistency thing on this topic. but we're getting away from the initial subject. Good tamping method Thanks Caspresso

psaigh

whenever i employ a new technique i try and quantify it as much as possible. I weighted literally hundreds of shots until i was convinced of it's repeatability. And as for the time taken, the dosing stage takes .9 of a second longer than the time it takes to grind the coffee (ei/robur takes 3.2sec, dosing takes 4.1sec, k10 takes 5sec, dosing takes 5.9seconds) And i'm sorry, but i really don't see the point of the initial polish, though your explanation of the different tamping weights does make great sense. Also, i was wondering if you're familiar with scott rao's book, "the professional barista handbook"?

[deleted]

fun back and forth with you psaigh. I didn't think you meant the first polish. I agree, its probably not terribly important, but I do think it will help create a more consistant top. I could be wrong, but I dont think its necessarily of an detriment to the puck. I know your not suggesting that though. One thing though, I think its good to just repeat things the same way, makes you more consistant, even if it has no impact on the result. I think when your going fast, the vertical lift technique on the first tamp makes you cocentrate on using two actions in the same process. Not a terrible thing, just maybe a little mind consuming and therfore time consuming. The grind times wont be affected by any method. what I'm saying is that the method is slow. If you dose in one process then the rest of the added actions will slow you down. But you dont dose in one process do you. You dose - tap - dose - tap - disrtibute - srape - tamp - tamp - clean - extract. Is that right I'll look for that manual you mentioned, I'll just say though. Good theory does not a good method make. It is only the practical truth that proves itself relevant.

admin

Just getting back to the tamping/collapsing thing; personally, I have collapsed for years, and haven't found it a problem. I'm not a pro [although i make a pretty mean shot] but I would have thought the main thing, whaever you do, is consistency - guess we're all agreed on that! -A

[deleted]

Its not that I think its a problem. 1/2g variables aren't gonna blow up the coffee machine. Its the precision of it that I question. Especially because there are so many high level baristi that say its consistant, but the process cant be precise, there is simply too much potential for inconsistency. Where do these ideas get tested, and is there any indisputeable evidence for its effectabililty. 1/2g variables are not a reasonable variation in the sense of consistency though. Because that is simply not consistant. And 1/2g variables have been explained away as ok to me in the past.....WHAT???

psaigh

d You dose - tap - dose - tap - disrtibute - srape - tamp - tamp - clean - extract.

Written like that it does sound like a lot of work, however in practice a lot of the work is done while the grinder is grinding. The rest is completed in under 1second. And I totally agree with your comment "Good theory does not a good method make", especially when translating that to the cafe setting. At the end of the day, there our countless different dosing and tamping methods. I think it's great for a thread like this to pop up which offers a few conflicting points of view, so as that someone reading and wanting to learn more has the opportunity try the different methods and do what works best for them.

[deleted]

Definately. I'm learning heaps about peoples ideas, its great

[deleted]

I only collapse once, at the end of dosing. I think that people who read Scottie Callaghan's article a while ago somewhere followed his methods of dosing halfway, collapsing, then dosing to the top and collapsing, but personally I've found this just invites trouble unless you're at an incredibly similar level every time when you're 'halfway'.

[deleted]

And here you have struck upon my point. You cannot dose correctly using the method stated by Scottie Callaghan. I still don't agree with any tapping. but at least doing it at the end you may have a little hope at consistency. I think, as I've said in the "grind and dose consistency" topic. Using methods such as stockfleths or the like, really require dose consistency to be efficacious. And a method which employs variables is not consistent.

[deleted]

no-one can get halfway, then collapse every time, exactly the same. close I'm sure but not the same. I challenge everyone to measure their dosing

psaigh

been there done that... Using a constistant method of collapsing (some number of taps, similar pressure within taps) is significantly more consistant than not collapsing. Trust me, there's a reason why every single competitor who made it to the finals of the ABC while not using a timed grinder, uses some sort of collapsing technique. It's not just for show 😉

[deleted]

In the end if it works it works. I think there really needs to be a movement toward timed/weighted grind on demand grinders (which I think there is). Maybe there is a bit of basic skill lost using this ideal. But in a professional environment. these really are the better choice for speed consistency. And a lot less loud and physically demanding. But we really are talking about the high end of the coffee arena when we get into this area. And thats the reality of the topics I have started. Not the perfect cup, but the best, fastest, most consistent coffee making. perfection happens beautifully when given the time to do it. But if 1 barista is making 4 - 6 kilos a day. there generally isn't time for all the lovely tricks. but I totally disagree with the collapsing is more consistent, it may be the same/ish, but not more. I so would love to have a coffee gathering that had nothing to do with competition, experimenting different styles and working out why which is better.

askthecoffeeguy

I agree barista jams are great fun and a way to canvas and share knowledge as well as a chance to hang out with other coffee 'geeks' Although I disagree about not being able to accurately collapse and manual dose for high volume - my cafe at melb uni makes 800 plus coffees per day to pretty good consistency (3 beans in melbourne coffee review) and we employ this technique, although admittedly we have two baristi on the machine at any one time and often another 'prepping' Once my new joint in Westgarth is up and running I'll be happy to host barista jam's for all and sundry - anyone with a passion for espresso is welcome! Cheers, ACG

Kelsey

I know this is resurrecting an old thread and I hesitated before doing so, mostly because I disagree with almost every aspect of capresso's recommended technique. I do collapse. I do not bash the portafilter. I do not polish. Suffice to say I believe you can get a consistent enough technique with collapsing and levelling and I'm pretty happy with that part of my process. But it's that last one I want to chat about today. Since starting my coffee journey earlier this year, I've experimented with a number of different tamping styles. Early on my wife had some advice from a barista we appreciate and respect that we shouldn't tamp too hard and that we should polish. Since that time I've experimented with various tamping strengths and found that for me at least a firm (not gorilla) tamp gets the job done. However I've been having some issues lately which are at least partly attributable to my OPV being set too high, but also partly due to that little twist. JamesM over on 'that other place' mentioned recently that he'd abandoned polishing as he believed that it actually disrupted the puck and caused channeling. As part of my ongoing coffee evolution I've been experimenting with this recommendation. And it's worked wonders. I've been enjoying my doppio ristrettos like never before. I'm getting vastly less (but still some*) channeling and a much better result in the cup. I'm really looking forward to having my OPV nudged a little to see how much difference this makes. Has anyone else experienced this? *JamesM also (oddly) pooh-pooh's the idea of precision fitted tampers/baskets. As I have a terribly-fitted tamper, I have problems getting a level tamp and all my channeling occurs around the edges, so I don't agree. Although a Pullman and matching Synesso is greatly desired, it's way down the list of things that I can justify the purchase of to the finance minister!

Koffee_Kosmo

OK let me get a few things straight A well fitted tamper will spin and probably wont disturb the edge A convex tamper base will spin and polish better that a flat pamper If the tamper is not a well fitting type I agree that spinning is unwise Having said that, my routine is to swivel the tamper in a sort of canter-lever / flower pattern prior to pressing down This little swivel pushes down the edges of the puck Works a treat KK

askthecoffeeguy

agreed, a well fitting tamper, especially one with a rubber ring component to the base (IMHO) glides easily into the basket providing a very even and polished surface to the coffee, without actually needing to polish the surface as such in a busy cafe environment polishing just adds one more (unnecessary in my opinion) aspect to your routine that can afford to be dropped in my last cafe at Melbourne Uni we would make up to 1000 coffees a day and I developed a ganglia the size of a golf ball on my left wrist mostly I think from dialling the steam wand, and from knocking out the puck - but after successfully treating it with acupuncture I determined to modify my routine to get the best possible result with the least possible effort needless to say no more polishing, no collapsing the dose with a tamper (I use the forks on the grinder instead) - and changing the dial on the steam wand to a lever all greatly helped to reduce stress on the body and to still be able to produce an amazing coffee!

JamesM

Kelsey wrote:

JamesM over on 'that other place' mentioned recently that he'd abandoned polishing as he believed that it actually disrupted the puck and caused channeling. As part of my ongoing coffee evolution I've been experimenting with this recommendation. And it's worked wonders. I've been enjoying my doppio ristrettos like never before. I'm getting vastly less (but still some*) channeling and a much better result in the cup. *JamesM also (oddly) pooh-pooh's the idea of precision fitted tampers/baskets. As I have a terribly-fitted tamper, I have problems getting a level tamp and all my channeling occurs around the edges, so I don't agree. Although a Pullman and matching Synesso is greatly desired, it's way down the list of things that I can justify the purchase of to the finance minister!

Hi! Phew, I made it. How old is this thread? I have been experimenting with not polishing my grinds after tamping. Honestly, I think if you polish gently (no pressure) you are good to go, but if you polish with ANY pressure, you are basically screwing around with your nicely tamped grinds, possibly introducing issues. I've basically stopped 'polishing' all together, I am certainly not getting 'worse' results in the cup by avoiding it.. generally reducing channeling to some degree (from my own experiments) I read an excellent thread on the home barista forum called "tamping twaddle", which goes in depth (including part #2) in to tamping with precision tampers, vs NOT. I'm convinced that a precision tamper isn't required to get good results. I do however believe that a precision fit tamper will assist you with getting a 'more' level tamp on your grinds compared to one that has a little slack. A precision tamper CAN cause a vacuum when swiftly removing your tamper from the grinds after tamping, pulling the puck away, you need to be quick to see it, sometimes it's minimal, but never the less, it's ruining your tamped grinds. For me, it's about results in the cup. Some people polish, twist, knock, tap, swipe, do a little dance, grunt, whatever. Just make good coffee! 🙂

Brett_H

JamesM wrote:

Hi! Phew, I made it. How old is this thread? I have been experimenting with not polishing my grinds after tamping. Honestly, I think if you polish gently (no pressure) you are good to go, but if you polish with ANY pressure, you are basically screwing around with your nicely tamped grinds, possibly introducing issues. I've basically stopped 'polishing' all together, I am certainly not getting 'worse' results in the cup by avoiding it.. generally reducing channeling to some degree (from my own experiments) I read an excellent thread on the home barista forum called "tamping twaddle", which goes in depth (including part #2) in to tamping with precision tampers, vs NOT. I'm convinced that a precision tamper isn't required to get good results. I do however believe that a precision fit tamper will assist you with getting a 'more' level tamp on your grinds compared to one that has a little slack. A precision tamper CAN cause a vacuum when swiftly removing your tamper from the grinds after tamping, pulling the puck away, you need to be quick to see it, sometimes it's minimal, but never the less, it's ruining your tamped grinds. For me, it's about results in the cup. Some people polish, twist, knock, tap, swipe, do a little dance, grunt, whatever. Just make good coffee! 🙂

Welcome James. Nice first post. I will admit to tapping once to compact, once on the side with the tamper to redistribute the fines off the wall and polishing with a wrist-flick flourish. I know I can get as good a result with my thumbs and have demonstrated this to amazed (bored senseless and sorry they asked) guests, but I really do enjoy the dance. Sure I'm not as balletic as AM, in fact I'm right up there with Mr Bean and drunken chimps; but it is almost ceremonial for me. I think like any technique there will always be a better way somewhere out there but after a certain level of competence technical consistency is what really counts. If I were making 350 shots a day the dance would break me but for my average of 2-4 shots I continue to enjoy the ballet. Welcome!

GaryatGala

I like the short videos of Gwylim Davies on Youtube. He says too many people fuss over this or over that, just do it well, keep it clean and consistent, and always taste the coffee. I use the same technique he shows at work and at home, though i don't do that polishing touch, and reflects in a great cup every time. 😉 Gary at G

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