which machine

laz

Tired topic but I will ask again

ECM giotto vs Isomac Millenium Vs Berreza BZ99

apart from the visual differences, what are the significant technical differences

Unknown

I have an ecm giotto great machine. my friend has millenium, great machine.  I think millenium looks way superior, but at the end of the day when we compare they are very similar in steaming, hot water etc.     if I had my time again would buy ecm celleni, we both think its flat sides look fantastic and its identical underneath hood to giotto. we have both plumbed them in, and you should also.(if poss)  makes coffee time 100 percent more enjoyable, no drip tray or worrying always about topping up water etc. dont know about bz99 you ask about, but i have seen it and think it looks very average compared to other two so wouldnt bother. Not a popular machine though. Im sure its similar under hood also. dont doubt its quality. the millenium is all stainless steel, including frame.  ecm has steel frame. also some great deals around on both these machines. giotto premium a friend just got for $2000 new with accessories. In sydney. millenium, I know where you can get it for 2000 but im told it can be had cheaper. millenium overpriced here compared to the united states but thats the deal here for some reason. lets us know what you decide laz crock

Unknown

I've had a Diadema Junior for over 2 years. It makes the best espresso, has the most powerful steam of any I had before, and has been the most reliable hands down (hasn't been back once for service). Previously I had a san marino compact (the most unreliable machine I ever owned), and a bezzeera BZO2S which I think is the newer version or next model up of the Bz99 you mentioned. Neither could compete anywhere favourably with the Junior in performance (coffee quality, capacity & strength of steam) but the Bz was reliable. For me the reliability factor is the next most important thing after performance, and "looks" comes last. Have you asked around about how reliable your choices are likely to be? Bottom line if it helps, I'm not looking to upgrade anywehere in the near future and after the first (expensive) disaster follwowed by what i think was a lack lustre choice in the BZ,  think the junior is a long term investment by comparison and worth a look. HomeB. me too, let us know what you go for.

john

Laz A tired topic, but it keeps popping up. Can talk about the Giotto and the Diadema Junior (La Valentina), have one of each sitting on the bench. Both extract excellent espresso and both have above average steam capabilities. I believe that the Isomac and BZ99 are also OK. An industry colleague has the BZ99 and he swears by it. In the end I think that in many cases it will come back to personal preference on the appearance of the machine. However, do not forget the after sales service. The Giotto and Diadema lever operated machines are similar in price. Crock said that you can pick a new one up in Sydney for $2000 including accessories. That is a very good price. Suggest that you go to the For Sale section of Crema and have a look at the Giotto and Diadema. JD

snappa

Laz, I've just purchased a giotto premium (last week) and i think its the ants pants, i have been making some great brews, so i'm told, and its a pleasure to work with. have a few friends with other similarly priced and dearer italian machines and they are very impressed with my machine.just before i purchased i spoke to a guy selling both beans and espresso at the local markets who is using a giotto premium and he raved about the machine and its reliability, and ability to produce coffee all day long. that convinced me.... goodluck with your hunting, know how u r feeling.

laz

Thanks to those that responded. Happy to pay $2000 but where? Regards

FreshCoffee2

Contact John of CoffeeTraining off line. He answered your question a couple of posts up and he is professional, fair minded and supports this website and its participants. You can find him from his ads in the For Sale section of this site. Price is a many splendid thing. The RRP of a Giotto here is 2550. The RRP of a Diadema Junior Plus semi auto with electric group is 2350, and with manual Lever (similar to giotto) operated group 2450.00. There is a used Bezzera BZ35E also advetised in the For Sales. It is a much more "robust" machine than the BZ99 with impeller pump and electronic touchpad (new RRP 2850.00) and requires a water connection. It has had very little use. What you pay is up to you. Usually when you pay less you get less. Perhaps you can get a giotto for 2000 and that's nice, everyone likes a bargain, but I bet it's given to you in a sealed box, un-benchtested before sale, without instruction.....this is the espresso eqivalent of selling a car to someone that has never had a driving lesson, without even giving it the pre delivery service. I like to be looked after, and sometimes that means I am prepared not to get a discount in monetary terms. Have fun and enjoy whatever you buy. FC.

john

HomeBarista Glad to see you are enjoying the Diadema Junior. I am too. I have been bench testing one now for about 2 months. It certainly is a very impresive machine. Great lines. I think that it can stand alone on its merits. It is right up there with the best of home-style espresso machines in its class. It is well built, a solid machine which will outlive much of its opposition. The espresso extraction and the steaming capabilities are excellent. The Diadema Junior is the same machine as 'La Valentina'. La Val (as 'she' is affectionaly called) has been extremely well praised on a number of coffee forums. Out of interest, I have had it set up beside a commercial machine and the Giotto. It would be hard to pick the difference in the espresso from any of the machines. I would be happy to own either one and also have the utmost confidence in selling both. In choosing a machine in this price range, I strongly suggest that you look at all the options and quiz the resellers about what makes the machine 'tick'. If they don't know then find someone who does. FC thanks for the kind words. John

Unknown

Dear LAZ I used Danes   in sydney and so did my friend    negotiated $2200 for ecm premium giotto        with milk jug, kilo beans, tamper etc thrown in and 1 hour of training if I wished. Highly recommended.  They are an ECM  reseller so know the machines very well, and use them in their stores so you can see them and taste them. I also have an ECM machine and its fantastic. best wishes tony

john

Crock Your help requested please. Noticed your post about the Giotto. Any chance you could let us know who sells the Giotto Premium for $2000. I have contacted every body I know that sells them and could not find one for $2000. Have tried to email you but the emails keep bouncing back. JD

FreshCoffee2

Could it be that Crock is a "plant" who's just come it to deliberately stir up a bit of trouble over prices and vendors? Many probably don't realise that IP addresses are recorded in each new post, in a section that only ADMIN can see...he can tell who is submitting "a load of crock" and / or deliberately misleading posts with bogus email addresses. Pricing is an interesting subject. Someone writes on the net they can get something for a great price somewhere, and it immediately ruins the price for all legit traders, with people ringing up or emailing from all over looking for that really hot price. Legit traders are

john

FC I think the name says it all!!!!!!!!! CROCK, yep a real crock........... Im not sure who may have planted CROCK or why. Just another case of some turkey (it is around Christmas, you know) rambling on and trying to mislead genuine forum members. I think that forums can do without the CROCKS of this world. JD

Unknown

ecm is a good machine and enjoys the e61 heads rellay great for dosing bezzera 99 is a fantastic machine in many ways more reliable and sturdy than the ecm the screens are quite low and has a tendency to heat up but all you have to do is some basic tempreture surfing. vibrating pump is reliable and will more than suffice for domestic use

john

Uribe11235 The Bezerra 99 is a very good machine. However, can you please explain "bezzera 99 is a fantastic machine in many ways more reliable and sturdy than the ecm". Also what experience can you back up the claim that the B99 is sturdier and more reliable than the ECM. JD

Gonzo

Never mind about that. I'm just happy that the ecm really "enjoys" its e61 heads and that they're really good for "dosing". Haven't quite worked out the relevence of the "low screens" but I think it'll come to me in a dream, and I'm really happy the vibrators are reliable, particularly as they all have the same ones! Those of you that care to check my email address will note it is one of the VERY FEW in this thread that is legit and actually works. Readers should note, this thread is full of misinformation so if you really are seriously looking for semi commercial espresso machines, better look up a legit trader or two, find them in the for sale section of this site, AS MOST OF THE INFO PASSED ON IN THIS THREAD IS SUS. Choking even more than usual after reading this one! The Big G.

john

Gonzo Yep some of the posts are unfortunately a bit suss. Having a look back many of the 'suss' ones appear to come from GUESTS and a number of the email addresses are a crock. Possibly bored house bound turkeys with nothing else to do and getting fatted up for Christmas. I am sure, come the new year most of them will have had their heads lopped off and be still sitting in the supermarket freezer. Sorry but not prepared to go down the vibrator track but might duck out to Manly for a surf before the temperature gets to me. JD

Unknown

Laz re price I know one chap on this forum got his giotto premium delivered to perth or brisbane (not sure which now) for $2300 I think a few months back.  From Danes in sydney.   considering delivery thrown in that seems good to me.  If you could pick it up you could save a few dollars. I get quite a bit of stuff from them as well.   Always great service. LAZ A place in melbourne will do you $2300 cash as well, beans and extras included....Post again and I will email you direct. Under posts somewhere re danes anyway...didnt have time to search...........look and im sure you will find him and can email as well.... as others say you can shop all you like to save a few hundred dollars but in the end service and convenience way in.   All shops throw in beans, and extras so dont worry about that stuff. julie p

admin

Hi All and especially FC - in answer to your post a couple of posts up - yes, I can knock a post off, if it is clear that it is dishonest or defamatory...neither of which has been proven, although I agree it's a highly dubious claim. Either way, I agree that Crock's post is probably rubbish - so anyone beware - it is very unlikely that you will get the 'genuine article' Giotto brand new anywhere in Australia for under $2,200. -A