WHICH GRINDER?

FreshCoffee2

Fellow members, it seems appropriate to bring this up here, now:

Because of a direct question from a client, myself and the client ran a side by side test between 2 opposing grinders yesterday.

The question posed by the client was something to the effect of

Reschsmooth

FC, Good discussion. A couple of questions: 1. Can you comment on the likely life of the plates/burrs of each grinder including possible cost of replacement? 2. How would each grinder performed if you were to grind, for example, enough coffee for 5 coffees in quick succession (to resemble a dinner party) - would the burrs/plates get hotter in one over the other? 3. How would each perform with a 'cheaper' home machine which pumps out at higher pressures than the $2500 jobbies (assuming I am correct on this point)? You read a lot by self taught experts and regurgitators who say that the grinder is the most important part of the equation with no real quantitative data pointing out why. Sure, they use logic, and perhaps it is all correct. But it is good that you actually compared the two with the most important measuring tool - your palate. Cheers P

FreshCoffee2

G'day Patrick,   1. Can you comment on the likely life of the plates/burrs of each grinder including possible cost of replacement?     Actually no I cant! Frankly in my experience there is a lot of hog wash regurgitated around about the life expectancy of grinder plates / burrs. It's like the "timing of the pour" thing....people pick on an arbitrary number of kilos ground and are emphatic that you should change the plates at that point...one minute they're ok, next minute they reach the specified number & they magically go immediately "blunt"....unbelievable. Some plates are made from different material or hardened in a different way to others, and there are all kinds of different blends in the market with differing densities, some people like to use coarser grinds, others finer...some grinders spin faster than others, get heated up more from friction than others, etc etc etc. You only know when the grinding plates have "lost it", when it happens. It could be after 400 kilos, or it could be after double that, depending on the particular situation.   And that's only from a commercial point of view! From a domestic point of view where very little coffee is ground over a period by comparison with the above, it can take years for grinder plates to go blunt, even if it was not a very large quantity of coffee ground in total..who knows, so am afraid...cant realistically answer the question! Cost or replacement is a little easier. The plates in the commercial grinder can be expected to cost around double of those in a good domestic grinder and with a minimum charge for labour ( might only take 10 minutes to do but workshops will have a min charge), will cost somewhere around $100.00 give or take.   2. How would each grinder performed if you were to grind, for example, enough coffee for 5 coffees in quick succession (to resemble a dinner party) - would the burrs/plates get hotter in one over the other?   The high speed commercial should be faster. Hotter, maybe, but if it grinds more quickly and stops, while the other is still running, maybe the temps work out the same Who knows. Could we tell the difference between the brews subsequently made from each? Who knows, but realistically I would think not.   Maybe we should try that next, might be surprised! 3. How would each perform with a 'cheaper' home machine which pumps out at higher pressures than the $2500 jobbies (assuming I am correct on this point)?   I think each would perform equally as well with a domestic or commercial espresso machine going on the result from my review yesterday & when the burrs are in good nik. Thanks for your kind words. Regardz, FC.

Nico

Hi guys, First of all I'd like to introduce myself as I'm new here in that this is my first post, I have been around the forum for quite some time though as a guest. I have been using a Gaggia Classic for about two years until about a month ago when I upgraded to a ECM Giotto Premium. Until the update I had been using mostly pre ground as I had not had a good experience with the little Breville flat bur grinder I had purchased. This little grinder cost about $70.00 and I could never get a good crema from the grinds, even when getting pre ground from the coffee retailers and also directly from one coffee house who you would expect to give you the correct grind for an esp machine. Early in 2005 my wife and I had enjoyed articles in the Crema mag and also the coffee show on Fox with Paul Bassett. After watching him grind direct into the porta filter and produce the most glorious looking Crema shot after shot. So not being happy with the available pre ground and wanting to get the full value of my new Giotto it was time to look at grinders. Firstly though, being a mechanic, I pulled the little Breville grinder apart and adjusted the bur gap to give me a finer grind and it was very successful but I made the fatal mistake of trying to regrind about 300 grams of a lot previously ground to a courser setting only to burn out the motor. Back to the new grinder hunt, after reading as much as I could I had almost settled on the Mazzer Mini but the physical size of those types of grinder was putting me off a bit as I

One-a-day

Good post Nico and great timing , I was looking at the Breville flat bur but couldn't find any reviews/feedback on it so I steered clear of it , I had the Delonghi KG100 on the top of my birthday list but now I think I will get a sunbeam like yours at the end of the month.

BeanCounter

Hello Nico & One-a-Day, I'm not familar with that particular grinder, but followed the link Nico provided. I'd add a caveat that with 24 grind settings, it may be difficult to obtain a grind that is optimal for your machine. You may find the best spot is half-way between clicks. You can get around that to some extent by tamping heavier or lighter, or grinder half at one setting and half and the other. My current grinder (a Lux) has around 40 stops and I sometimes struggle to get the right balance between dose, grind and tamp. Regards, Gary

FreshCoffee2

Amost all sub $100.00 grinders that I know of in this market are unsuitable for use with pump driven espresso machines for three reasons: a) unsuitable grind particle uniformity and b) unsuitable method of adjustment c) weak motors. For this reason it is best to run with brand names that specialise in coffee brewing equipment, rather than in all & sundry "electrical appliances" almost all of which have nothing to do with coffee. Have you considered checking the banner on top of the page for a suitable grinder? For domestic purposes the Solis Maestro Plus 167 is an excellent grinder and has facility to grind either into a grounds container, or directly into the group handle of your machine. Grind uniformity is what it should be, adjustment runs right down to "turkish" which is finer than required for any espresso machine, standard if build is excellent, the importer is a trustworthy, honourable, experienced, well though of importer specialising in coffee brewing equipment.   Regardz, FC.

Greg41

FC might be able to help me here, but all advice is appreciated. I have just started a mobile coffee business(part time). I use my commercial grinder as my domestic grinder as well, but find it is too big and bulky for domestic purposes as i am the only one that drinks coffee in my house. Is there a grinder that is good  for domestic use yet gutsy enough for a back up for commercial purposes in case my commercial one breaks down?.A grinder in between domestic and commercial is what i'm getting at. thanks, Greg.

BeanCounter

Greg, A couple that come to my mind are the Cunill Tranquilo and Rancilio Rocky. To my mind they'd be the 'minimum' machines suitable for home use that could handle the duty cycle of casual commercial use. There may be others. I don't know where the Macap and Mazzer Mini figure in your thinking on the commercial/domestic scale but grinders of that ilk probably deserve to be on your list unless they're on the more expensive side. Heavier to carry, too As an aside, do you have a separate grinder for decaf in the cart? Regards, Gary

One-a-day

So , should I stick with getting a Delonghi kg100 (which is a rebadged solis 166 it?) Apart from looking all aesthetically pleasing I thought the 5 year motor warranty was good on the sunbeam and even though It would be unlikely in my case the replaceable burr note hinted at a bit of R&D in the grinder.

Greg41

Thanks for  recommendations Gary, i'll look into those.No i don't have a separate grinder for decaf as so far in my experience i would only sell about 3 a day at most, so i just use preground so until then i'll stick to that.

Nico

Hi one a day, Gary and FC, All very valid points re the Sunbeam and like I said in my first post I chose this machine for its size and budget was becoming a consideration when looking at the Mazzer level of machine. There was a bit of a gut feeling in there somewhere as well. As this is a new grinder on the market with no reviews around that I could see I suppose someone has to be the bunny to take the chance on the first one. Had some visitors for lunch today and so had the opportunity to give the coffee a bit of a nudge. This also gave me the chance to play with some more settings to see the results. Gary your comments re the grind settings are correct as you would find with most any step adjustable grinder, the more steps the better though. So far I have found that if you go below a setting of about position 10 it's so fine you'll get no flow through the group. I haven't tried but I would say if you set it to pos # 1 you'd get flour. They do say it's suitable for Turkish if you so desire. One click either side of what I'm using for the Giotto does give a noticeable flow variation but was easily overcome with tamp pressure variation. The build quality of the machine looks and feels as good as any of the more exe machines I looked at, it's main body is a brushed finished die cast alloy and the large setting ring at the top of the machine below the hopper has a good feel and positive setting to it. The weight of the machine causes it to sit nicely on the bench while in use when grinding directly to the porta filter and good rubber feet stops any slippage. Grind quality seems be quite good with a good gritty feel to it and no appreciable dust. I offer this as an early review of this machine and hope it helps those who are trying to make a decision on a new grinder in this price bracket, $180.00 was what I paid and so far I

mattyj

The sunbeam grinder uses the same burr set as the lux grinder. From what I can tell, the stepped adjustments are slightly smaller than the steps on a lux, and it's set up so that an espresso grind is somewhere in the middle of the adjustment range, rather than the finest setting. Sure, sunbeam make lots of other appliances, but that doesn't mean they can't make something well. One-a-day, I've seen the SB grinder for $188 in Big W, and I've heard of it going for $170 at other places. I used the delonghi for a while (which I got for $140), and I'd rather have had the sunbeam. The delonghi was good, but not as good as the sunbeam.

FreshCoffee2

One-a-Day, only you can be the judge of what to buy yourself however here a re a couple more notes for you: a) to give a 5 year guarantee on the motor of a good quality grinder is nothing more than a marketing excercise and a sure bet for the manufacturer they will never have to "pay up" because failures are extremely rare & mostly due to unwarrantable operator misuse. So if it were me I would not be swayed to buy a particular grinder because it has an unbelievable warranty attached to the motor, that others dont have. b) they ALL have replaceable burrs, and it is extremely rare for anyone to replace burrs in a domestic grinder because it takes years for most to actually grind enough coffee to wear the burrs out so once again, the fact this has been mentioned or advertised would not sway me to buy a particular grinder over another.     It comes down to what you like, in the budget you're in, and whether you think that in the event of some future problem, whether you will be looked after better by a department store set up, or by a coffee equipment specialist set up. Having written all that, the grinder will be with you for years and I would try and buy the "best" possible one I can afford at the time. ******************************************* Greg, remember you are talking about having a "stand by" grinder for your business so you have to look at the pros and cons of what's available from that point of view. So in terms of Gary's good ideas, here are some details to think about: The Cunil Cafe Tranquilo comes in 2 forms a) the electronically timed model that grinds straight into the group handle, dose by dose (basically same as rocky "doserless" but it has an adjustable "timed" cut out per dose) and b) the regular volumetrically dosing version (with the usual lever operated doser at front of the grinder). Suggest that because you are talking a smaller grinder ( because of home use) BUT you want it to be a standby for your business, then you might like to think about how slow it would be on the cart trying to use either of the two "doserless" type grinders mentioned, when you are looking over the counter at a group of people all wanting their coffee hit. So, I think in terms of compromise you need to be compromising on the home front, rather than for the work front...which means I think that if you are going to have a work standby grinder that you can also use at home, then it should be the type directly suitable for work. You (I) might therefore go with a cheaper OR smaller but perfectly serviceable work grinder. To my way of thinking this means you have to can the idea of any doserless grinders and run with either the Cunil Cafe Tranquilo manual "Doser" grinder, or a Macap M5 manual doser grinder (see this one up top of this page by clicking on the grinder banner)  or a Mini Mazzer manual doser grinder. They all amount to the same thing, they all grind equivalently to eachother, but the standard of build on the Cunil is much much lower than that of the other two. Of the other two, there is virtually nothing between them except for details that may be important to differing individuals. Note here, the rocky "doser" grinder is unsuitable because the doser cannot be adjusted to suit commercial size filters (it drops a non adjustable smaller dose suited only to the factory filter supplied with domestic silvia & lucy). Lastly, and to turn the whole discussion upside down ;D, lets not forget that in nearly 100% of all cases, you will NEVER use your standby grinder at work. Commercial grinders are very resilient and rarely fail....so your standby grinder will rarely if ever get used in a work situation. Does that mean you should therefore buy a small doserlesss grinder for home & forget all the above ;D? Regardz, FC.

BeanCounter

Nico, Sounds like a reasonable purchase. Let us know how the grinder performs over time. In case you haven't seen it, Dan Kehn from home-barista has some useful comments on overcoming the perceived shortcomings of stepped grinders at http://home-barista.com/feature-spotlight-grinders.html under 'Macap M4 Review' about two-thirds of the way down the article. Regards, Gary

Nico

Gary, Thanks for the link I'll most definately have a look at that and yes progress reports are definately the order of the day as to performance over time. mattyj, That's an interesting observation on the burrs re the LUX, its one I had noted with some other machines I'd looked at and found three of them with the same gizzards. One final note on my choice of machine, most all the machines in this price range seem to be made of plastic, case and all, the S/Beam machine has a nicely finished metal case and like FC said himself your not likely to wear out a set of burrs in home use nor burn out a motor, so warranty should not be needed unless you get a dodgy one right off, that is of course unless like me you fiddle with a $70 machine to try and get it to perform like a $400+ machine, now that just don't work as I found out. Like everyone here is saying including me buy what you can afford if it pleases you, listen to the advise from those who should know, those in the industry, that's what I did and that's why I chose the S/Beam, it was designed with guidance of a World Barista Champion (Paul Bassett) and if he doesn't know what a good grinder should do what hope have we got. Regards Nico.

nunu

I always worry about products that are endorsed by "industry celebrities." Race car drivers can drive a car fast, but do they have the engineering knowledge required to design a car?  The company can easily give a person a few extra bucks for them to agree to have their name put on something.  It's marketing, and it appears to have worked.   How come none of the other World Barista Champions aren't rushing to put their name all over every coffee product that comes out? And for under a hundred bucks more, you could have gotten the Iberital Challenge, with infinite adjustment.  Nothing worse than being stuck between steps.

Reschsmooth

Nunu - I am not supporting Bassett or SB, however, I give a bit more cred when a racing car driver endorses a brand of petrol, oil, exhaust system or anything like that. What p@#$es me off is when, for example, a successful Australian cricket captain puts his name to an air-conditioning and 'plasvision' [sic] company - nothing to do with cricket. I would suggest that a batsman would have a pretty good idea about the qualities that make a bat good, even though  they may know nothing about how the right growing conditions for a willow tree in England or about the rolling techniques for the blade. Similarly, someone like Bassett may not know how the grinder is constructed, but may have an idea of what a good grinder, for the price, may require. Each to their own. P PS - speaking of companies getting into things they know nothing about - if you have every seen Brian Lara's, Sachin Tendulkar's or even Steve Waugh's bat before he retired, they all used MRF bats (c$500 +) - MRF stands for Mumbai Rubber Factory  :o P

nunu

It's all about clever marketing, not necessarily the merits of the equipment, or the name endorsing the equipment.  If it sells, then it's a tick in the good column, if not, then it's back to the old marketing drawingboard. You have to look at it like this:  You don't see Mazzer, La Marzocco, ECM, Elektra, etc seeking to put "famous" coffee names to their products.  The products sell themselves through quality construction and reliability. Sunbeam makes good toasters, but you don't see the "World Toasting Champion" (if one exists) putting their infinite toast expertise behind the design of a new model toaster. Here's a thought...I wonder what Paul Bassett uses at home for a grinder/espresso machine... Hmm...cricket bats are made from trees, unless of course you count Dennis Lillee's aluminium one, and so is rubber.  They must know trees  :P

Reschsmooth

Well, it appears LM are using Mark Prince to help create an awareness and eagerness for their new 'home machine' - given he runs/owns (I think) coffeegeek, some people do ascribe deity status to him. Ironically, this would probably have a greater impact than using the name of a Barista (what is a 'barista) champ to flog home appliances when the market for those products is less 'market aware' than the market for the new LM machine. From what I understand (which is generally very little), both LM & Sunbeam have been using these 'names' to help develop and therefore market their machines, albeit in different ways for the different markets. And one could argue that LM are seeking to develope a 'great' product, but are they also using the hype to set a price to perpetuate the notion that they are 'that good'. Now, perhaps I could use a Sunbeam grinder for a bat on Saturday?  ;D I agree that, at the end of the day, it is all about marketing and sales! And companies can use 'names' to market in different ways. Cheers P

Nico

Well it seems we have gotten a little off the track and the pros and cons of sponsorship advertising and marketing have overshadowed the products. When it all boils down any manufacturer has the ability to make a good product or even an excellent product, some make poor products, sponsored or not the proof of the pudding as the saying goes. What I do know is what I'm producing at home with the equipment I have pleases my wife and myself very much and as for reliability and longevity only time will tell, as for Brand Name loyalty it also seems there will be controversy and beating ourselves around like this makes for an interesting discussion but ultimately is not productive. I think we have done this subject to death and only more testing will unveil any interesting little morsels to chew the fat over. Good extracting. Nico.

mattyj

heeheehee ... I just love tall poppy syndrome!

Greg41

Thanks FC. So many variables to consider. your quote,"So, I think in terms of compromise you need to be compromising on the home front, rather than for the work front...which means I think that if you are going to have a work standby grinder that you can also use at home, then it should be the type directly suitable for work." "You (I) might therefore go with a cheaper OR smaller but perfectly serviceable work grinder." I do agree with this suggestion.Work is more important. So i will be guided along this line of thinking. Did'nt realise the commercial grinder were so resilient. just wanted to err on the safe side. Thanks for your guidance FC much appreciated. Greg.

Remus

lol great discussion on advertising and promo. i understand the skepticism but it's obvious why they do it. personally i'm a mike jordan fan from way back and it did influence me to buy nike products cos i loved the bloke. i'm sure adidas made clothing of same quality but it didn;t have the magical "23" endorsing it. am i a sucker, obviously yes !! :P would i buy a sunbeam cos of bassett ? nope. but i would consider it due to it's fantatsic value for money. i think there could be a real possibility of over-skepticism. btw: great toaster line. funny stuff. ;D :D

Honest_Gaza

From another angle, I bought the Sunbeam EM6900 because it had the ability to perform both the Steam and Espress functions at the same time.  When I noted on the box that it was designed and endorsed by Paul Bassett (World Barista Champ)...I thought "How good is this ?" In truth, I also thought "Who the f@#$ is this ?"....I'd never heard of him  ;D So in this case, reading the endorsement made me feel warm and fuzzy inside even though I didn't even know who the hell he was....and why would a Lawyer even care about coffee machines.

FreshCoffee2

Yup, no doubt about the world of marketing & politics.... Not on topic but I've been watching this stuff for a while (re the last post: "I bought the Sunbeam EM6900 because it had the ability to perform both the Steam and Espress functions at the same time.When I noted on the box that it was designed and endorsed by ... world barista champ 2003...") with quiet amusement..... a certain italian manufacturer was building domestic machines more than 10 years ago that you could make coffee with on one side & steam milk with on the other. I imported & sold a small quantity back in the mid nineties.... ; They were an easy concept, being 2 separate dometic machines inside the one body, and sharing the one water reservoir. What's old is new, due to the better level of acceptance of espresso macking paraphenalia now, than there was 10 years ago. I wonder if this means that it was I and not Paul, that designed & endorsed the first machine of this type in Australia?????  ;D ;D ;D Regardz, FC.

nunu

I'll buy anything with your name on it FC  :P