Cheaper alternative to ECM Giotto ?

Darvon

If I have to shell out $3000 to get quality equipment I don't mind too much, but if there was an alternative that performed almost as well for less I'd deffinitly consider it.

Currently I'm looking at getting an ECM Giotto and a Mazzer Mini.

mattyj

The ecm is very blingy! Look at expobar office leva - it looks similar to the barista minore (just google search the names), but is similar internally to the giotto (big boiler, heat exchange...). The expobar office leva used to sell for about $1600. Dunno what prices are lately. You can go cheaper, for the office pulser (that's what I use), at about $1200-1300. or, look into isomacs - I didn't like these as much - fixed position on the steam arm turned me off. They're not all that readily available in aus, it seems. or, look at bezerra machines. They look sort of 80's, but good performers. There's usually a few of these on the e-garage sale ... ebay. that said, giotto fans are all die hards, and in their minds, nothing is as good as a giotto. Judge for yourself! (the giotto probably has some nicer features - a no burn steam wand, nickel plated water lines etc. The expobars look more industrial and plain ... I like the look of my expobar though!) or, you'll probably get a pm from FC about prices on a diadema splendour, and we'll get a message in this thread from him saying 'check your private messages'. nice choice on the grinder too! edit: oh yeah, look for the La Scala Butterfly - that was going to be my choice until the wife said 'no'. There's a full stainless steel model for about $2k, and there's a model that's slightly cheaper, with back and side panels made of a tough industrial looking plastic ... easy to keep clean! (check alan frews website, coffee for connoiseurs, he sells them)

mattyj

edit #2, and then of course, don't think that by buying 'the best' that you'll make 'the best' coffee. invest in finding a good local roaster who will promise you fresh coffee, and see if they have a barista who will work with you and teach you good espresso technique! or do what I did and spend hours learning on the net, kilo's of coffee, and litres of milk on practise.

Darvon

That's the idea.

mattyj

there's a name for that, you know; 'upgraditis'. I thought I was cured after spending about $2k last year. Then came the new portafilter, chopping the old portafilter, trying different filter baskets, buying a handmade tamper, trying different steam nozzles, buying extra meters of silicon hose, a 12L water tank to go under the bench, plumbing bits to drain the drip tray, a 9L tank for drip tray run-off, a new bench to put it all in/on .... what next? If you want, I can recommend some vendors for the different machines mentioned ... but I'll pm you that ... some businesses can get upset when other businesses are mentioned.

nzroaster

I might just have something for you, until end of July I have Expobar Office Auto at a great price!!!

mattyj

Hey Darvon, I can vouch for nzroaster - good bloke and a great roaster! I bought a vacpot from him a few weeks ago - great service, prompt and really helpful! nz, I'll order some coffee soon, I promise!

FreshCoffee2

Ok, I'm going straight back to the original question: "If I have to shell out $3000 to get quality equipment I don't mind too much, but if there was an alternative that performed almost as well for less I'd deffinitly consider it." Depends entirely on you and wife's (or girlfriends or partners or whatever) individual taste & opinion of any particular machine. It's your kitchen, anf you have to live with your choice for a considerable number of years so, looks are definitely an important factor in the domestic situation. No point in paying less for spomething that doesnt look (in your opinion), nice. Often at that upper end of the scale, it not the actual performance that is in queastion, but the little features that appeal to individuals. "Currently I'm looking at getting an ECM Giotto and a Mazzer Mini. Not to upset, but there are plenty of other alternatives including the really nice machines that my company imports. "With the Giotto though I'm not sure how much of the $2300 is actual performance and how much is 'bling'?  Is there a cheaper machine with perhaps less style but similar performance?" It doesnt matter how much of the price is bling....if you like the Giotto best, then you have to pay the price because for you, buying any other is like accepting second best. Very often, the hardest part of a decision is in accepting that you like the more expensive item and it just twists your gut that it will cost more hehe! Once you decide to hang the expense & buy the one you like (no matter which one) there is no more problem with the decision. Buy the one you like! If you like ours...even better! Dont forget that buying from a site participant, even if it is at a higher price, guarantees great after sales service rather than a situation where after you buy, no one is interested anymore. Regardz, FC.

mattyj

I also get the impression that most machines in this class (domestic hx machines) all perform really similarly. So I guess it comes down to looks and after sales service. Ask all the vendors about what kind of after service they provide, both in the event of the machine breaking down (which seems to be rare, but it happens), and routine things like replacing group head gaskets, descaling etc.

nzroaster

Exactly Matty & FC. All the machines in the 2-3k heat exchange range are fairly similar. We found through bench testing, cupping, and our service techs years of experience in fixing them that some do outperform others. Personally I feel the Giotto is overpriced for performance (looks great though). There are plenty to choose from, but as I mentioned before....give me a call.

john

HI Darvon FC has made some good points. Over the years I have sold a number of the ECM Giotto, Diadema Junior and Splendor, and the Mini Mazzer. All are top end domestic equipment. Well made and will possibly out live us all. Apart from selling them I have also used them personally. I have had either a Diadema or Giotto on the kitchen bench for the past few years. At times, I have had both. Playing and more playing. Currently I have a Diadema Junior sitting on the bench, making awsome coffee day in and day out. My suggestion would be, to go and pull a few shots from the combination that you have an interest in. I strongly advise you not to buy a machine unless it has bean bench tested. If it hasn't then you could be in for some fun!!!!!! I also suggest that you consider purchasing your equipment from one of the site sponsors/advertisers, that way I am sure that you will get the very best value for your hard earned 'bucks'. Feel free to call or email me for a run down on these machines. John

jeffr

How would any of the Expobars compare to the Bricoletta or Diadema?   Would the Expobar FA Office be similar to the Saeco or other auto/mass market machines?   Also curious about the Diadema & Nuova Simonelli Oscar, tho Oscar cant dispense hot water. Many of the machines between $1700 & $2400 look quite similar.  Are they actually made but the same manufacturers and simply rebadged? I want a machine for a small office and sometimes dinner parties. Apart from being stylish, it must be compact, easy to clean & low maintenance & functional.  

mattyj

the expobar FA (fully automatic?) ... I take it you mean the one with volumetric controls ... Internally, it's similar to all the other machines mentioned (giotto, diadema etc), but more 'industrial' looking. I guess that whereas ecm's had some external design done by italian interior designers with a sense of fashion, expobar's were made by a bunch of spanish engineers after a machine that works, is easy to fix, and makes a damned good coffee. It's got a decent sized boiler for steam, a heat exchange for the espresso, and an e61 (even if it's a copy, still works the same) grouphead. So, if you want something that just does the job regardless of looks, go for the expobar. If you want an espresso machine that does the job, and looks stunning, go for a bricoletta, diadema, giotto etc...

admin

Just a little footnote to this discussion - FC is doing anadmirable job of being non-commercial about the Splendor on this thread. Senior member Pinot had both the Giotto and the Splendor on his bench for testing and found that they performed equally. It's a beautiful machine (as is the Giotto). -A

jeffr

Thanks,  I appreciate your responses.   Today I played with a Giotto.  Yes - its a lovely machine. From the pictures I've seen of the different Diadema's, I think I prefer the look of some of the Diademas. I've seen the special DD Junior Plus SA package advertised which is extremely enticing, but the pictures of that model on 2 different web sites are different. So I'm not really sure which machine is actually being offered.  Is the Macap M5 considered to be a better grinder than the  Rancilio Rocky?

Reschsmooth

Jeff I have had a Splendor and a M5 for 10 months (many thanks to Pinot) and the machine itself is a nice piece of eye-candy that works really well. As any HX machine, it needs a good cooling flush, but both double spout and naked extractions are fantastic. The M5 is a great grinder, although, I think I may possibly prefer a stepless model. P

sharkboy

Hi Patrick, I've got a Diadema Jnr which is similar if not the same internally as the Unico, I've always thought mine runs a tad hot. How much water are you flushing after your machine has been idle for more than 15 minutes, and what is your flush routine during multiple shot preparation?

john

Hi jeffr On the Rocky and Macap M5, I have sold these grinders and also used them side by side. Both are good home use grinders. They are two different types of grinders. I think that the Macap is better than the Rocky. The Macap is closer to a Mini Mazzer in comparison. It is also more of a semi-commercial machine and more expensive. The Macap has a bigger foot print. If I was considering either the Diadema Junior/Splendor or the ECM Giotto, if the budget allowed, I would go for the Macap. This way you would not need to upgrade, unless you wanted to go the 'whole hog' and get a BNZ or Robur conical for around $2,500.00. Patrick mentioned the fact that it was not stepless in the adjustment, a fair comment, but this is a matter of personal preference. Yes you may be able to achieve a 'slightly' finer or courser grind with a grinder that has stepless adjustment, BUT, for most of us, I do not believe that this is a real issue. With the Diadema or Giotto and the Macap and some fresh roasted beans, you will have years of great espresso. All you need is then a copy of Barista Techniques!!!! John PS: I did not comment on the other machines mentioned as I have not had very much to do with them. As mentioned previously, over the past years I have had either a Diadema or Giotto on the bench and both are awesome. I currently have a Diadema Junior on the bench and playing with a BNZ conical.

FreshCoffee2

Gday Jeff. I sent you a detailed PM yesterday...hope you got it, check RHS top of this page You are right the two pictures are different. The picture on my website is of the other body style. Same machine, 2 styles of body. The one on my site is temporarily out of stock but will be back in, in about 4 weeks (on the water, in the container, as we speak/write)....They two machines are almost identical except for: black VS chrome toggles; manual hot water knob on RHS instead of a toggle & solenoid operated hot water tap; brushed instead of polished stainless steel body and the grate & badge & handle on the drip trays. Otherwise, they are the same machine.   Diff between rocky & Macap? There are a few different ways of looking at it so: Rocky is configured (ie built) as a high end domestic M5 Macap is a small capacity commercial. The grind *quality* (ie consistency of particles) would be the same for the two grinders if you were able to set the two grinders to deliver exaclty the same grind however the method of adjustment of the Rocky is not as good as the one on the M5 and that is, you can get closer increments between click stops on the M5 than you can on the Rocky. Having said this however, the rocky is more than perfectly adequate to the job. Also, if you choose a rocky doser grinder, the doser is not adjustable & only delivers an unchangeable dose suitable for rancilia silvia / lucy / audrey (domestic) machines, which use smaller than standard filters. The M5 has a fully commercial adjustable doser unit, which is also much much heftier and well built (as it should be for the type of use for which it is built). On the other hand the Roclky also offers a "doserless" version. And then, the M5 is also available in a "counter" or "deli"  version, that also can be used in a domestic situation as a "doserless" as it simply has an exit tube on the front instead of the doser unit. The difference between them is about $250.00, with the M5 being the pricier one. If you see them together, it is easy to see why. One more thing, and it relates to "matching" equipment. Machines like the Diadema Junior are "semi-commercial" machines ie, commercial machines that are physically too small to be placed in cafes but nevertheless commercial machines. They are intended for office & "high end" hiome use. The proper "matched" grinder then, is the M5 or other grinders in the same category being, small commercial grinders. That said, the rocky is a very nice, sturdy, reliable, heavy grinder of solid construction that delivers the goods properly at a lesser price. Then again, those who are price conscious in the extreme and dont see the "value" in this type of equipment probably wouldnt be in the semi commercial equipment market in the first place! Hope this helps, FC.

FreshCoffee2

Hey Sharkboy, your Junior is an early model that came through another importer. Later examples have been developed further. The type of development that happens also depends very much on the individual importer & his level of contact with the manufacturer and that is, the amount & type of feedback the importer's service section gives back to the manufacturer. We are always seeking ways to improve these already great products in any way we can, & we talk frequently with Italy. It is normal for the water in the heat exchanger to heat up to boiler water temperature when the machine is resting and ON. This is the reason for the "cooling flush" prior to applying the group handle and brewing coffee. I set my own personal machines to cut out at between 1.0 & 1.1 bars of boiler pressure. This keeps the temperature of the boiler water (& therefore the "heat exchange") lower than it would be with a cut out of say, 1.2 bars or above etc. Lower boiler pressure then means a lesser quantity of steam. Early model Juniors had large sized exit holes in the steam nozzle and therefore had a very aggressive steam that lessened in intensity fairly quickly (but still did the job in terms of frothing adequate quantities of milk well). We run our later models a little cooler AND supply steam end nozzles with smaller exit holes than the earlier models. This makes a "softer" or less aggressive steam exit, but the steam delivery/capacity lasts longer, for a lower boiler pressure! This also has the benefit of a less "wet" steam, and much better texturing of the holy grail of milk foam...micro froth. This is a won / win situation...better espresso & better milk, the result of a "thinking" equipment importer such as ourselves.   With regard to cooling flushes during multiple extractions, the accepted wisdom is that when a machine is being used continually there is no requirement for a cooling flush because the water in the heat exchanger is being continually flushed through and doesnt sit in the pipe overheating as will happen when the mahcine is at rest...this ofcourse, is subject to the individual machine & set up, and the method of management by the operator. When a machine has been left sitting at rest, it is not uncommon to flush a full coffee cup (as in cappuccino not espresso) of hot water out of the group before brewing. All normal stuff. If you want any help with your Junior, please dont hesitate to contact. Kind regardz, FC.

Reschsmooth

Sharkboy, FC has provided a better response than me, but, after the machine has been idle for a while, you notice that the water jumps around a bit with lots of steam. I let the water run until such time as the steam subsides and the water stops 'jumping' around. This can take a few seconds and somewhere like 200 ml of water. When pulling multiple shots, I only flush enough water to flush any coffee grounds from the screen. P

Darvon

Thanks for all the replies and discussion guys.  It has been a very informative thread for me.  (Double kudos to FC and Matty) It will still be a few months before I've saved up the cash but I'll deffinitly be keeping this thread bookmarked and look at getting a machine from one of the site sponsors. If anything this thread has probably confirmed the Giotto as my machine of choice, it's just so swauve and the price difference isn't as steep as I feared. :D

dan480

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