Rio coffee stale

askthecoffeeguy · October 2010

At my work we run with two blends and seven single origins - some of which I won't serve less than 12 days post roast and some of which drink best at the three week mark! So it's horses for courses I guess...

Dry_bean. · October 2010

on 1287007964:

At my work we run with two blends and seven single origins - some of which I won't serve less than 12 days post roast and some of which drink best at the three week mark! So it's horses for courses I guess...

I tend to agree with Lars, somewhere between 2 days and a week for me, which is the reason I roast weekly. Three weeks? wouldn't know, never had a batch around for as long as that.

takeaim · October 2010

I run the wholesale operations for Atomica Coffee in Melbourne and there are many variables that affect the coffee ageing process that Pat has eluded to already. It's also my job to ensure retail stock at our cafe is rotated, once coffee reaches 12 days post roast we remove it from the shelves if it hasn't been sold yet. To say you wont drink a coffee past 10 days is very broad statement, one of our most popular single origins doesn't peak until day 11, it's the job of the retailer to educate the customer about this. The majority of customers want beans that are ready to use and as such most of our shelf stock is at 5-8 days post roast. We usually have super fresh stock available and sometimes up to 4 roast dates of our house blend, if a customer asks for something as fresh as possible as they may be going overseas or dont intend to use it yet we have it available.

Cherry · October 2010

Droped into rio on Thursday morning and bought coffee. ( and to check dates). Out of about 6 or more coffees on offer, about 2 coffees would have been 7 days Crema working for me at present. Bought 3 days out.

lars · October 2010

thought I'd give it a try one more time... actually there was plenty of selection of recently roasted coffee, which was nice; same unfriendly staff, but happy to have some fresh stuff [5 out of 10 isn't bad]! L

Dry_bean. · October 2010

on 1288406175:

[5 out of 10 isn't bad]! L

Ain't that good either.

Have to admit I shop there myself now and again, they do have a great range of all things Italian, as long as I know exactly what I want and am prepared to serve myself. Have not bought coffee from them for over 12 months, the last batch literally left a bad taste in my mouth, perhaps things will improve with their new roaster.

Cherry · October 2010

You are a hard bean dry bean I feel like blending you with something sweet!

Cherry · October 2010

Drinking most recent espresso blend as plunger! This morning and past few mornings wow flavours are sweet, choc, good fruit drive

lars · November 2010

on 1288406175:

thought I'd give it a try one more time... actually there was plenty of selection of recently roasted coffee, which was nice; same unfriendly staff, but happy to have some fresh stuff [5 out of 10 isn't bad]!

...not sure it's such a great thing to have to say that Rio finally had some fresh coffee... isn't that pretty much what you'd expect all the time from a roaster? Are you sure you don't have anything to do with Rio Coffee Cherry?

lars · November 2010

Hi cheerry - shame you couldn't answer my question; one of the reasons i was wondering is because Rio's close to me and i'd like them to be my local roaster.. problem is most of their roasts are overdone, and I was wondering if you were planning to experiment with making some of them a little lighter? L

admin · May 2011

on 1288406175:

thought I'd give it a try one more time... actually there was plenty of selection of recently roasted coffee, which was nice; same unfriendly staff, but happy to have some fresh stuff [5 out of 10 isn't bad]! L

this is nothing to do with the coffee; following on from another post, I took my Diadema Reale in to Rio's service dept on Tuesday last week; to be honest, it felt like they were doing me a favour even looking at it for me... I described the symptoms & asked when they'd be able to look at it and tell me the prognosis and they said not for [at least] two days. Given that I had been told by member FC [from whence the unit came] that he would send any parts I needed from Canberra, I was keen to know by the end of the week, so FC could get them off before the weekend if needed. So insisted to the Svce dept Manager that I understood it may take a few days, but I needed to know by Friday, to which he agreed. By Monday, still hadn't heard anything, so decided to relieve them of my trusty Reale & take it to someone who was more interested... turned up this afternoon, they gave it back without a word of apology or even [as far as I could see] embarrassment... I was pretty amazed, to be honest, although maybe I've got an old-fashioned idea of customer service. ???

DoubleRistretto · June 2011

Hey Admin - maybe you should take a few 'home-tinkering' lessons so you could learn to fix it yourself!! dR

admin · June 2011

on 1307145021:

Hey Admin - maybe you should take a few 'home-tinkering' lessons so you could learn to fix it yourself!! dR

you're not wrong dR!

lars · August 2011

went back recently, why you ask?? because it's the only roaster close to where I live. bought some beans that had just come out of the roaster - some amazing huge beans - Guatamala Maragogype. they still had a bitter aftertaste, but I put them beside some beans i've been getting elsewhere and they are just a lot darker; in fact some of them even have burnt black crusting... they've just come out of the roaster so I'm starting to think the problem is not age, but just that maybe thet roast a lot darker there! Will try and get some pics up to see if someone can tell me. L

Brett H · August 2011

on 1313647873:

went back recently, why you ask?? because it's the only roaster close to where I live. bought some beans that had just come out of the roaster - some amazing huge beans - Guatamala Maragogype. they still had a bitter aftertaste, but I put them beside some beans i've been getting elsewhere and they are just a lot darker; in fact some of them even have burnt black crusting... they've just come out of the roaster so I'm starting to think the problem is not age, but just that maybe thet roast a lot darker there! Will try and get some pics up to see if someone can tell me. L

Hi Lars, Do you roast at home? If your closest roaster isn't roasting to your taste then perhaps it's time to ditch them. I had 10 years happy service from 2 poppers that provided me with small but fresh batches roasted just the way I like em! 8)

lars · August 2011

Hi Brett - no don't roast at home; managed to get a picture of the beans - one thing I wouldn't mind knowing about (from an expert) is why the one on the left is pitted - it almost seems to have a hole burnt in it?? L

beanflying · August 2011

The Defects don't surprise me as the bean isn't very tough. If they are trying to punch these beans to quick charring and pitting wouldn't be unusual. Roast depth if my monitor is giving a true indication is old school Italian style and any decent flavours will have been choked out of it. :P

borat123 · August 2011

:o Too much heat too quickly will cause holes like that. If that is the best Rio is capable of roasting, it's downright embarassing and I'm surprised anyone buys their product.... Coffee Barun, and Coffee Craft would be the two closest guys that roast locally and produce good quality stuff. Maybe I should drop round with the KKTO and some quality beans, and show them how it's done... ::)

Lwowiak · August 2011

Rio have a number of blends and Single Origin coffees. Some are roasted quite dark, as that is what the majority of their customers request. They started their business with dark Italian roasts, as that is what many (and I say this with the utmost respect) Italian oldtimers wanted. A business has to cater to what their customers want, not what is waxed lyrically on internet forums. Everyone has different tastes, and one's palate is always changing and improving. I have bought (in the past when I lived in SA) a number of coffees from Rio, and must say that most were roasted well. Finding fresh coffee was a different matter. I would always approach the back and make some enquiries about coffee first. Once the conversation was struck, an offer for some recently roasted coffee was always made. My preference was to shy away from their dark Italian roasts. My cousin, on the other hand loves their dark roasts, and is still a regular. When they were situated on The Parade, the coffee was always served from their bins. Freshness was never an issue. I used to buy their "Cibo" blend regularly, but that was a few years ago now. I would ask to speak to someone involved in the roasting, explain what you prefer, and see what they recommend. Mention your dislike of previous purchases and see where it leads to. You have to be specific with them. If buying coffee from the numerous bags on the shelves, look carefully at the dates, as their rotation of stock is somewhat poor. They do sell freshly roasted coffee, sometimes you have to hunt for it! ;D Simply Coffee in Kent Town also have a tendency towards the dark side. Once again this is catering to their customers. Ash is not a flavour I like, be forward and tell them straight away what you do not like. You will be surprised how some will go out of their way to please you. All the best.

DoubleRistretto · August 2011

on 1313719878:

The Defects don't surprise me as the bean isn't very tough. If they are trying to punch these beans to quick charring and pitting wouldn't be unusual. Roast depth if my monitor is giving a true indication is old school Italian style and any decent flavours will have been choked out of it. :P

seems like the bottom line - either the coffee's stale or they blast the hell out of the beans, and seeing you say it's not stale then it must be the latter!!

beanflying · August 2011

I remember reading about the Maragogype varietal a while back, grown at lower altitudes and porous where 2 things I remember. All that says to me is treat them kind and nurse them to where you want them would be best.

lars · August 2011

Ok guys - thanks for that! L

mycuppa · August 2011

The hole is what I refer to as "pitting". There is probably an official chemistry term to describe it, but I like to call it "pitted". As others have indicated, the heat has been applied too fast/too intense and the result is de-lamination of the bean cell structure or it could be a defect with the bean that is not being compensated for during the roasting. I've seen it on softer, larger beans such as Colombian Supremo. We had an issue in mid 2010 with a pallet of very high-quality Supremo that was occasionally pitting - but only in a completely random way, e.g. 1 in 6 batches, etc. Evident in the cooling tray were little divots, just like a wedge shot approach the green in golf. These divots were dark and most likely bitter (not that I tasted it). Not many, just a dozen or so. As we first noticed it when the bean was part of a blend we took steps to isolate the root cause. Roasting the bean as a single, I initially thought it was due to the profile and final end-temp being a too aggressive, but as it was occurring so randomly, we put it down to some defect in the bean - perhaps caused by an over-rip fruit or processing method that was less than ideal. What I did end up discovering was the bean itself behaved completely differently towards the end stages of the roast, say from the midpoint between 1st and 2nd crack - once it had sufficient internal thermal energy. We noticed profile acceleration and the bean temp would race ahead of the tracer and require manual intervention to bring the roast back into control. It was this deviation that alerted us of the likelihood of a few divots in the batch. We ended up quarantining the remaining bags and used them sparingly in other blends. In this case, I did not believe it was a roasting defect that caused the pitting, or I should say once we caught the issue we had to adapt our roast profile to "nurse" the batch home to completion. I have seen other examples of pitting and these have been caused by excessive heat/speed during the roast (basically getting it totally wrong) - generally a softer bean such as a southern American will break down more easily than a harder bean or a different cell structure like an African. A bean that is pitting is a sign of something wrong and further adjustment or action required.

lars · August 2011

on 1313741758:

I remember reading about the Maragogype varietal a while back, grown at lower altitudes and porous where 2 things I remember. All that says to me is treat them kind and nurse them to where you want them would be best.

ps I meant to say 'it's a shame' - from what I can pick, apart from the cindery burnt edge to it, they must have been quite nice beans. It's a shame when Adelaide's biggest roaster can't get it right.

admin · August 2011

thought this fitted best down here, as it's now developed a sort of 'industry' feel. A

lars · August 2011

no problem Admin by the way, I realise this might not mean anything but for those who are interested, I managed to get a pic of the beans alongside my regular (medium roasted) Five Senses beans

MoffeeCoff · March 2012

Assuming different beans result in different roasted beans in terms of density and size I assume that one not only needs different grinder settings to achieve the intended extraction behavior but also that this changes over time.

UNM · March 2012

on 1331631255:

Assuming different beans result in different roasted beans in terms of density and size I assume that one not only needs different grinder settings to achieve the intended extraction behavior but also that this changes over time.

That assumption is correct, but grinder settings are not the only thing that has to change to achieve the intended extraction.

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