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OMG, where are the coffee police ?

derrilexderrilex
edited January 1970 in Have your say
After having my fair share of rancid crap coffee from various joints in and around Brisbane and both coasts I have to vent. Today the wife and I went down to North NSW for a surf. After having the usual thermonuclear vomit on previous visits I spotted a new place displaying the banners of a very prominant Brissy roaster. Thinking I  had half a chance of a decent take away ( given the beans) I ordered a FW and a Cap. I watched the machine operator ( calling her a barista is a insult to those that are) and was blown away. This was her routine on a 2 group Wega

1. purge group head - good start
2. insert empty PF and run water through - fine
3. unlock and re lock PF rapidly 6 times with incredible force like a demented OCD sufferer - WTF
4. Remove PF, turn upside down and drag across ( on the basket's sealing suface) the drip tray to the other end of the machine - to remove water I assume
5. Without wiping / drying the basket, dose and wipe off excess back into the doser chamber and tamp using the grinder's tamper. - cringe ( not wiping out and recycling grinds)
6. Firmly whack the bench ( yes the bench, no towel or mat ) with the PF spouts - holy shit
7. Re tamp
8. Lock in and pull the shot

This was repeated for the cap. I wont go into the milk as there are only so many hours in the day.  Apart from the appaling technique on display I reserved my judgement for tasting as its what in the cup that counts. Well, it would have made liquidised dog shit taste nice. I'm quite confident the week old contents of ones drip tray would be better.

Now here is my real beef. I'm so sick and tired of seeing businesses survive that either

1. dont deserve to survive but do so due to lack of competition, or
2. survive based on customer ignorance netting the owner a tidy some for producing shit.

Now when Kelsey,  Brett H and myself went to the Campos cupping session recently we were told that its quite a achievment to be granted the use of their beans and they do random audits to make sure their product is been represented properly. How true this is not known but I do know that there are not that many places in Brisbane using Campos beans and virtually none compared to the 2 big boys of Brisbane. I have heard rumors that if you sign up with the supplier in question they give you a machine to use - how nice.

Now, the point of my ramble is this. If the supplier of the beans to this questionable cafe actually knew how their product was been presented they would no doubt cease supply. Ive had a lot of coffees from this supplier's outlet and it is generally above average to very good IMHO. So what gives ? Is it the beans, the staff or a combo of the two. Should the bean supplier train the staff to produce a quality cup, hell yes I reckon. I suspect that its more the mighty dollar. Great, another coffee shop wants to use our beans. Sign here, give me some money, here are your beans.

To the other commercial roasters out there, do you audit or train your customers  to make sure they aren't destroying your product and reputation ? How do we, as a coffee movement stop businesses from murdering the product ? Maybe start a consultancy ? I shall be writing to the owner of the company telling him of my experience at the coast. The response, if any, should be interesting. No response will confirm my suspicions that its all about the dollars.

Rant over.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    I thought I had struck the holy grail of shit coffee at Straddy and everything from then on would be better. Proved myself wrong, again. :laugh:
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Awesome AM. A step in the right direction for sure. Audit the bejesus out of them I say. I would like to see a mystery shopper type of deal go on where a member of the roaster's cupping team or similiar went un announced to every cafe that uses their beans. Tastes and reports back. Those that fail are offered training or the beans are withdrawn. Simple. If I was supplying beans to cafes I would want to make damn sure the cafe was doing my product justice, particularly if the cafe had banners and umbremlas advertising the fact that my beans were used at this cafe.
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    Speaking from the other side of the fence........a supplier's perspective. It's not about the dollar as there are more coffee companies in Australia than you can poke a stick at. Speaking to a coffee bag manufacturer last month confirmed my suspicion - they have around 950 "Australian Roasters" as customers on their books. How many of them are commercially cafe coffee focused ? who knows, but there are plenty more than we can count and they are out there haggling for new business with cafes all the time - plotting and scheming to take control of the supply to the *better* cafes - it's a war out there. This creates an oversupply of providers trying to service the 25,000 or so cafes and coffee outlets in Australia. Whilst many of you may think customers come banging on our door, it's simply not the case. Engaging and working with customers is a time-consuming and expensive process for a roaster. Cafes expect the world and plenty of $$ to be outlaid by the roaster even before the first coffee bean is paid for by the cafe. That's right, us roasters have to dive deep into debt to supply a new customer, so it's not a decision taken lightly or flippantly. I bet many smart and brave business people operating in other industries would shy away from some of the stuff roasters are requested to do when dealing with new customers - paying for new grinders, espresso machines, barriers, umbrellas, signs, uniforms, crockery, etc for total strangers to use........knowing full well you can't totally control the way the stuff is treated - it takes quite a bit of courage to do this. As for rules, policies, contract clauses, warnings or threats......they all toothless tigers when it comes to cafes - many live by their own rules, including when they think an Invoice is due for payment. Most roasters provide training, advice and do care a lot about how their product and their customers perform, but there is only so much a roaster can do - it's just not practical to keep training every new staff member, including those that have obviously zero interest in being a gun barista - they are hired because they are young, available to work the crazy or short hours, put up with complaining customers and tyrannical cafe owners and for what is only a moderate income. Cafes expect training for free and it's both time consuming and expensive when you factor in the staff churn of cafes. The problem has very little to do with Roasters or coffee companies and the only way this type of situation is going to get better is when people take their complaints directly to the owners of the cafe and explain in simple yet effective terms the impact of poor standard coffee preparation.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    I guess its gets hard when you go to the cafe owner and basically ( nicely) tell him/her their coffee is crap. I'm guess the response would be something like, "But all these other ( non coffee cultured type of ) people seem to like it " or " Get the F%$# outta my shop " I heard a interesting interview on the radio on Friday with Mr Dibella, Mr Merlo and 1 other smaller Brissy roaster whos name escapes me. It does sound like war out there. DiBella are currently having a massive blue with Vittoria over Vittoria alledgedly poaching customers and then nailing them with dodgy contracts - alledgedly
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    There have been bitter (excuse the pun) wars raging for years between a few of the larger roasters. Most of it is price and relationship driven - knowing the owner of the cafe is very important, else it does not matter at all how good your beans and service might be. Just about everyone working in cafes knows 1 or 2 people that are connected to a coffee company. The adage of it's not what you know but who you know is what makes the cafe coffee scene wheels go round and round. It's not about Golden Bean medals or the best blends or the uber premium exclusive single origins. Down here in Melbourne there are the same types of wars. Company A steals an account from Company B so Company B then goes out and aggressively targets at least 2 of Company A's accounts. Tit for Tat......on it goes, round and round. Hit 'em where it hurts. And just when you think that all the freebies on the list can be exhausted, how does paying for plasma screens, 6 months worth of free coffee and free tickets to the Gold Coast for the cafe's family sound......any more incentives that anyone can dream up to entice you to switch coffee companies ?. So folks, sorry to rain on your parade but the cafe coffee world is not what you think it is......the best bean does not always win - it's about deep pockets, deep connections and deep secrets. We work with cafes, but we are also extremely selective after many years of being occasionally "roasted well into 4th crack".
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    Yes, I have always encouraged people to complain, but unfortunately many cafe owners become deaf to complaints after about 6 months and therefore voting with your feet is just as powerful. What is even more impressive is when you enter a cafe, take a good look around, gesture as if you are about to order a coffee and then walk out. This can create some seeds of doubt without emotional confrontation. I did this once and an owner chased after me and asked what was wrong - I went back and he was a nice guy who really wanted to improve. Less turnover and the owner with their stubborn ways will eventually make way for some new blood and a fresh attitude as the cafe changes ownership so a new opportunity is created. Sounds cruel, but sometimes it's the only way for improvements to be implemented.
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Mmmmmmmmmmmm! A meaty topic. Yes and may I say in a great percentage of food outlets with a coffee machine, if you complain all they do is pick up the phone and pass it on ie, give their supplier a serve. So complaining per se, doesnt really work in terms of having the owner understand that he or his staff may be doing something wrong. It would take a month of sundays to explain more of this to you in detail Derrilex and suffice to say that Jeff (MC) has done a fine job of making it as simple as possible here  ;)
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Youre a sneaky one MC, good trick though. What I'm really driving at here is I know how good the cup can be using said company's beans and surely a little QA program is well justified. It cant be a matter of cost as MC pointed out, the big boys have plenty of $$ to throw around. 1 qualified company rep could sample the entire gold coast in a day or two. FC, a month of Sundays ? surely not. I'm in business, I know how it works or should I say, how it should work. Good product + good service + good price = good result and growth. The cafe business seems to be immune to these basic principles and yet they are still there. I suspect the problem really lies with the ignorant customer. They dont know what they should be tasting or not tasting. I'm not really interested in how a cafe comes to use a brand of bean. Ive seen all the wheeling and dealing regarding product in the motor industry, lubricants and batteries in particular. What does interest me is the massive variation in quality from one cafe to the next that all use the same product. Surely this should be of enormous concern to the roaster ? Consistancy is one of  the golden rule of business. Or does the coffee educated person simply write the bad experience off and go to their own kitchen and pour a shot better than 99 % of whats out there for sale ?
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  • UNMUNM
    Just a couple of thoughts, not specific to this circumstance. Often, but not always, it is more effective to complain in writing. 'my teaspoon is dirty' - best dealt with there and then.  More complex issues, or those that have potential to be emotive will benefit from a written request and response. Doesn't have to be hard copy, but should be one to one. Conversely, if you receive excellent service, it is also  helpful to let the business know. How else are they to place appropriate value on quality? If you just want to vent. An internet forum is great! Done it myself often and it does make me feel better. For venting, the product or service provider is best kept out of the loop.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Couldnt agree more. When I have a great coffee somewhere ( rarely but does happen) I'll let them know. I'll even use their beans or go to the source of their beans and buy. If I have a bad brew the product ends up in the gutter or bin. However, I now feel strongly enough about this issue to write to the company and ask some Q's. 
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    on 1331502520:
    A) ....I know how good the cup can be using said company's beans and surely a little QA program is well justified. It cant be a matter of cost as MC pointed out, the big boys have plenty of $$ to throw around. 1 qualified company rep could sample the entire gold coast in a day or two..... B) ....The cafe business seems to be immune to these basic principles and yet they are still there..... C) ....I suspect the problem really lies with the ignorant customer. They dont know what they should be tasting or not tasting.... D) ....What does interest me is the massive variation in quality from one cafe to the next that all use the same product. Surely this should be of enormous concern to the roaster ? Consistancy is one of  the golden rule of business.....
    You have analysed and led us straight to some of the answers to your very valid questions, and I would like to add the following, point by point, based on my experience. a) Lets be perfectly clear on this.....professional coffee roasters have had their own QA programmes going for years. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. The fact is, if you line up 100 food outlets with a coffee machine ("cafe") in a row, they will mostly have their own individual interpretations of what constitutes a good coffee and or how to make it. Jeff mentioned in a nice way above....many are NOT interested NOT listening to the QA reps. Coffee companies dont have lots of money to throw around especially if there is no return on the investment. b) Yes that is one of the problems, the incredible astronomic interest in all things coffee has people jumping in all over the place all the time, despite their background and expertise is in totally different industries from food outlet and cafe or coffee business. The level of expertise and knowledge lags way behind the level of interest. c) Yes, if I may say so I wrote this amongst other things, in a topic in CS last week. Its a dogs breakfast...enough food outlet proprietors and managers without the requisite coffee making knowledge, and even more consumers with same lack of knowledge of the quality end of the scale, apparently accepting what some of us will call substandard product. d) Yes absolutely it is something that occupies my thoughts if not the thoughts of many other professional coffee roasters all the time, but go back to points A, B and C above. The market as a whole (food outlet owners and consumers) needs to evolve and gain a greater level of understanding and knowledge, that wont happen overnight, but it will happen....just look at the wine industry. It took a long time but it did happen. Are you still drinking Ben Ean moselle  ;D ;D ;D ? And not wishing to look like I may be part of the glass half empty crowd.....if you think its bad now,  you shyould have been looking at this 5 years ago. The market has already come a long way and is continuing onwards ergo....glass half full here. These discussions are essentially one sided as in from people looking in from outside. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that and please understand the sentiments expressed in your topic are no different to those of many professional coffee roasters and suppliers that dont want to see their products destroyed but please note, it is not a very good business model to simply refuse to supply clients on the basis that they dont "qualify" to use the product in some way. As you well know dealing with clients is NOT black and white and certainly isnt easy, a good supplier certainly will do all that they can to make sure their clients are doing the right thing, and there is always the element that after the client buys something from you its gone and they will will do with it what they will, and there is a point where if you interfere too much in what the clients wants to do with your product, that the relationship breaks down and they go elsewhere anyway. Lastly, at what point in the future might coffee suppliers expect that their food outlet with a coffee machine clients and consumers will finally take some responsibility for the re-manufactured product (cup of coffee) that they produce by their own hand in their own businesses and homes, instead of trying to shift the blame to others. Do they blame the butcher when they overcook the steak? As you can see, the topic is not so black and white, and is why many companies are moving or have moved to have atleast one secondary brand in a different name and packet from their main brand, to supply to clients at the lower end of the quality scale. Any more than the above and you will have to be sworn to secrecy and sign a confidentiality statement because we are moving into "commercial in confidence" territory  ;D Oh and by the way I should make clear, I am not at all disagreeing with your lack of empathy with wet coffee murderers, just balancing out with an opinion from the coffee company side of the fence. Once anyone comes up with a simple cure for all of this, please let me know first because I for one will implement immediately  ;)
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    on 1331507717:
    ....I now feel strongly enough about this issue to write to the company and ask some Q's.....
    Yes and I hope they treat your enquiry seriously and come back to you promptly because the value of their good name as a whole will depend on a prompt and diplomatic reply.  But I wouldnt expect you will learn anything specific as no one is going to discuss how they run their business with an outsider. It will be enough that you have been good enough to advise them of their brand name murdering client down the coast so they can do something about it, and for that I expect they should be grateful. I would be.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    I hope its taken seriously, I really do. As a prominant and successful QLD roaster its such a shame to see their product represented so poorly. As for the simple cure to all this - everyone just come to my new coffee shop. Done  :rofl:
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  • LeafLeaf
    It's such a shame when you see this... If they only knew the blood, sweat and tears that went into most roasting, they (Barista's, and Cafe Owner's) might have a better respect for the product... If I ever see this happening and I know the roaster, I always shoot them an email.. They are generally very grateful for the feedback. If it's a reputable roaster then, they would probably appreciate knowing that their product is being crucified..
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  • 3rd Crack3rd Crack
    on 1331469137:
    We work with cafes, but we are also extremely selective after many years of being occasionally "roasted well into 4th crack".
    ... 4th crack , and that has turned you into a diamond MC ...  ;D, Great articulation from a roasters perspective in this thread from both MC and FC.
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    Yes, 4C is beyond product combustion........... it's when the customer, the owner and any businesses involved or connected experience a catastrophic meltdown rendering nothing left but moon dust.
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  • Brett HBrett H
    Mmmmmm Moondust  :coffee2: Campos did tell us that accounts have been cancelled with cafes that have consistently served a poor version of their product.  We the passionate minority are naively comforted by this simplistic approach. Cue A-Team Theme Music:  The A-team: DX as Hannible, BrettH as Face and Kelsey as the spitting image of Mr T... Is Mr T!  They blow in to town and dole out unsolicited caffeinated justice suspending barista licences and leaving a trail of broken arches and burning super-autos in our path. Some excellent posts on both sides and our A-Team quest is now merely another boring case of public nuisance and criminal damage.  It's okay though, DX looks nothing like George Peppard. So why do I still feel outraged that something as simple as making a good cup of coffee is denied to me when the potential to have it on every street corner is as simple as giving a damn?  Seek clarity and give a damn...  Write the letter DX and keep us posted. Thanks for a great thread.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Must be a conspiracy, every time I log on to said company's website it crashes. Might have to go snail mail. :rofl: @ BrettH. I'm more into the Al Capone ( untouchables) style myself. " I'll have a ( he says while gently tapping the baseball bat against his leg) flat white and a cap thanks "  8)
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Blokes I would be very careful how you approach said coffee roasting business. It is tiresome (as a coffee merchant) to have people blaming you for the swill that is served in some food outlets. The food outlets themselves remanufacture the beans into something completely different from the raw materials, coffee beans and milk into a wet cup of "coffee". Leave out for a moment that it is the best interests of a coffee supplier in this period of development of the market, to try and follow their product down to a satisfactory end. I say tiresome, because all too often it seems that coffee suppliers are expected to shoulder the blame and carry the responsibility for a crap cuppa. What responsibility the food outlet? Can we not expect that someone that wants to go into the "cafe" business, might take some responsibility for acquiring the correct knowledge with which to operate their business irrespective of how active the supplier may be in helping them from the sidelines? As I see it you have separate issues happening. By all means complain to the food outlet because it produced the swill for you and charged you money for a substandard service/product. They should be properly managing their staff, and the products they sell and charge you for. And by all means complain to the coffee supplier that one of their clients is trashing their good name, and you are upset because you were looking at the name to get a decent cuppa! Choose your words carefully and think before speaking or emailing. The object is to win win not get people off side  :)    Quote Brett: "...(good coffee).....the potential to have it on every street corner is as simple as giving a damn?..." Yes in total agreement.
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  • mycuppamycuppa
    Attilio is 101% correct. We cop it almost every day. For us, mostly it is people calling up our 1300 number and telling the story about how they think brand X coffee is bitter and brand Y coffee is nice, or they are looking for a coffee that is not bitter and tastes nice as nothing seems to work for them personally. It wears you down, having to repeat the same lines about grinder adjustment, dosing and tamping, explaining the separation between roasting good coffee beans and what can happen at the brew/extraction stage. Even when someone is getting on a roll and trashing a competitors coffee, I tend to say....."Please stop for a minute - I think their coffee is OK and you really need to think about how it is prepared".
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Totally agree guys. Thats why I have written the letter, re written the letter, emailed it to very well respected coffee person for proof reading and then sat on it for all of today with the intention of sending it through tomorrow morning. The letter is quite neutral overall but positive towards the roaster and in no way bags anyone other than the cafe.
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  • KelseyKelsey
    I've been lucky to have a few absolutely excellent espressos here in Sydney - at Charlottes in Balmain (using Campos beans) and at The Little Marionette, using their own. I didn't expect Charlottes to be as good as it was, but I'm absolutely clear that in this case it's the beans AND the barista that have gone into the brew - I was just surprised that such an unassuming non-hipster cafe in that area so nonchalantly produces such a good cup. On the contrasting end of the scale, Costas gets a good rap from quite a few as a roaster, but I've never had Gavin's beans brewed at his Noosa cafe - only a form of watery swill produced by a local cafe in Caloundra. They've got the equipment, they've got the beans - its simply the one holding the portafilter who's lacking in knowledge or skill. But if the coffee is just a footnote, is there any point in even saying something to the cafe? I mean, they're not going after the boutique market (unlike the restaurant I mentioned in a similar complaint a few weeks back) and they don't really have any local competition to lead the way (again, unlike the previously mentioned restaurant, who are just a few hundred meters from Colin James Fine Foods, a virtual shrine to coffee). We've got a couple of really nice caf
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Thats what shits me about the whole ordeal. When you have to ask yourself " do I feel lucky today" when ordering from a unknown its probably better just to wait till you get home. And thats the whole problem. I hate to say it but maybe some places should just give up get a super auto.
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  • Brett HBrett H
    on 1331632157:
    Thats what shits me about the whole ordeal. When you have to ask yourself " do I feel lucky today" when ordering from a unknown its probably better just to wait till you get home. And thats the whole problem. I hate to say it but maybe some places should just give up get a super auto.
    They have, they are making money, they are called Mcdonalds and no I won't drink their Canstar rated crap.  theirs is a different set of problems.  I am not a genius!  This is a largely known fact.  How is it possible that I as an amateur coffee maker can consistently turn out better coffee than regular professional coffee makers (who are not under any great work-stress/pressure)?  I care!  DX your beef is not with the roaster (I know you know this).  Your beef is with the lazy schlub to whom you paid good money for a nice hot cup of coffee.  And I think you are right... that roaster deserves to know.  Not because you are a whinger, or because you want some vouchers but because you care. 
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  • derrilexderrilex
    To give you a idea, the Maccas drive thru super auto stuff was a COE compared to what I had
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  • RoninRonin
    I use to work for a site sponsor of CS here in Brisbane and was told that they also canceled accounts if coffee was substandard. At the time I enjoyed the coffee produced by this major roaster and the cafe had a great atmosphere with engaging staff who was continually joking with each other and the customer, while customer service was exceptional. Having been back there recently, I am disappointed to see where it is now. With staff changing, moving into different sections or moving on, the atmosphere has changed and I now do not have coffee there as the last one I had was left unfinished. Watching what happens behind the machine now is far from impressive compared to what was there before. I will drink the coffee from there but only if select people make it. And others I talk to agree with my comments. The image is important but reality can be different. I use to mention the accounts that were substandard to a friend who is a sales rep. Some training was organised but never did I see an account canceled. Come to think of it, maybe there was one, small account about five kg's per week. Perhaps I'm being cynical but it was probably for marketing reasons. "Oh yes we cancel accounts if there not good enough" I understand each coffee company operates differently and others think more than the bottom line, but this was one experience I have had
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Email sent. See what happens.
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    Blokes be realistic. If everyone fired their clients because they didnt think they were doing the right thing with their product, they would lose a great proportion of their business and the market would be even more volatile / aggressive than it is now. The suppliers that do (say) they do that, are working on a different business model and usually that means, they are working on the image side of things to try and bring them clients that they can sell at a premium But the reality is, the model of being exclusive and taking applications from clients, and firing them when they dont "perform", usually means a lot less turnover but at a better price and hopefully......prospective clients beating down your door trying to apply to use your very exclusive product. At the other end of the scale there are enough suppliers roasting and selling cheap coffee, with big turnover. So its all anyones idea of how to best run your own business, and its all image and marketing and market placement. And most suppliers are in the middle ground somewhere.... Addition to original post here: What I meant above, is that most roasters position themselves in the middle ground in the market....I was not referring to the middle ground of quality of roasting and resulting coffee. There are companies that position themselves in the exclusive high moral ground in the market, hiring and firing their clients and placing demands on them, and the technical quality of their coffee does not necessarily match the market position adopted, and there are enough roasters in the middle ground that have really high technical quality, but it seems there is a proportion in the market that really is *drinking the label*  After that its anyone's opinion and coffee is business just like selling real estate or tools or television sets I am afraid. What you see in sites like this is the passion and high level of academic interest, but it is not balanced by real life I am afraid (this is not an insult please  ;)) which is where, someone roasts coffee, someone else buys it and turns it into a cuppa, and someone else again pays money to drink it. Coffee is business just like everything else, there is no shame in deriving income from it, and there are real life problems just as with any other industry.
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  • derrilexderrilex
    Agree mostly but, coffee is not like other businesses in that I can go and buy the same tool, tv, dishawasher, hell even a burger from maccas and the product will be indentical across 100 stores. With coffee its upto the all the variables to align to produce a good cup. The results will be different from every single outlet and I accept that no problem. My bitch is the product that I received was in no way representative of product that I can get from the roasters' outlet. Not even remotely in the same ball park. In fact if I hadn't seen it made I would question whether it had been made using a espresso machine. If a roaster is going to supply a cafes with product A then product A should be served with reasonable consistancy - and I do mean reasonable. If one could turn it into a % I would expect the deviation to be no greater than 30 %. Thats a pretty big window for variation but I could live with it.  More than that then something is seriously wrong. I feel absolutely obligated to inform the roaster and I, if I were he, would be very grateful for the feedback.
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  • FreshCoffee2FreshCoffee2
    on 1331687662:
    I feel absolutely obligated to inform the roaster and I, if I were he, would be very grateful for the feedback.
    100% in agreement and I wish there were more clients out there willing to do this as well because that will help the market evolve over time to a better place. A good post with well thought out margins for "error"! When you move down here, come in and have a chat as there is little likelihood of me returning to QLD.  ;D
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