Portafilter diameters 58mm or are other sizes better?

C-man · August 2012

Besides the E61 looking the goods,

how is there a difference in performance?

cheers!

Kelsey · August 2012

As far as I know E61 does't refer to size - they're a 58mm just like most other commercial or prosumer groupheads. It's a type of group which, for example, Bezzera and a few other manufacturers don't license. Others do. Not sure of the pros and cons, but I love my electrically heated group.

beanflying · August 2012

I gather the question is on Portafilter Diameters and which is better/different/worse? If that is the case then I have some info and some thoughts on it

C-man · August 2012

on 1346059078:

I gather the question is on Portafilter Diameters and which is better/different/worse? If that is the case then I have some info and some thoughts on it

yep, I would be interested to hear them.

beanflying · August 2012

Firstly 58mm has become a 'pseudo standard' on commercial machines and because of this the makers of domestic machines have followed with phrases like Commercial sized portafilter, E61 "Styled" Group .... all of which is marketing spin. It however Wasn't that way in the past with a lot of domestic machines having portafilters under 50mm in some cases. In particular of more recent years some of the manufacturers of commercial and some higher end domestic machines have been going smaller diameter and deeper baskets. La San Marco & Della Corte are a couple of them. On top of these Pumped machines there is also a slew of commercial Lever machines being built now and in the past with 55mm groups. Sorry but I am going to have to leave the techie stuff for later as I am off out but here is a little science to kick it off

[attachimg=1 width=600]

C-man · August 2012

I would think the smaller deeper one would produce a shot with more body, Just like a triple basket.

FreshCoffee2 · August 2012

When discussing these things, keep in mind that they all work. And they dont just work, but they all work very very well (in the hands of skilled operators). And it all comes down to the opinions of the designers and manufacturers. Which is better, a holden or a falcon. And which is "better" on your choice of vehicle, 16 inch rims, or 18 inch rims? You would have to be a very very good driver to decide, and you would have to be able to substantiate your opinion with specific facts that can be proved with absolute conviction. Not denigrating the discussion at all, but it helps I think to note that equipment designers all have their pet likes and dislikes and opinions, and after that, its anyone's guess (or opinion) what is "better". I will be very happy to read any other info BF has on the subject, the above is already quite interesting if academic

UNM · August 2012

in most cases 58mm is a better choice than others.

conikal · August 2012

on 1346141088:

in most cases 58mm is a better choice than others.

That may well be true, but inquiring minds would like to understand why it is . !

UNM · August 2012

sorry, I meant to expand on my previous post last night when I got home, but circumstances conspired against me. while other sized baskets may well produce excellent results, the vast majority in use are 58mm. This means: there is far more collective experience for people to draw on when trying to improve their extraction technique or exchanging tips with others - different sizes WILL behave differently. If looking for precision baskets they are easier to get in 58mm size. much wider selection of tampers in 58mm

C-man · August 2012

Interesting, thanks

conikal · August 2012

on 1346058133:

Besides the E61 looking the goods, how is there a difference in performance? cheers!

Apart from the 58mm PF, I assume you are aware oF the unique internal design features of the "E61" group head that set it apart from other group designs. ?

C-man · September 2012

on 1346291693:

Apart from the 58mm PF, I assume you are aware oF the unique internal design features of the "E61" group head that set it apart from other group designs. ?

there must be something better about them, they are usually more expensive machines.

mycuppa · September 2012

on 1346482196:

there must be something better about them, they are usually more expensive machines.

The answer is not found on a keyboard.

Koffee_Kosmo · September 2012

I personally dont care what size a basket is I will always find a way to find its best or sweet spot The same question can also be asked ? What basket is best 9 gram or 21 gram capacity KK

Kelsey · September 2012

on 1346482196:

there must be something better about them, they are usually more expensive machines.

And marketers all over the world rejoice!

C-man · February 2013

I still don't know why E61 group head is better? some pre infusion is all I read Is there really any difference in the taste?

Kelsey · February 2013

It's not better. There are a whole heap of grouphead types, some more common than others - E61 just happens to be the most common type. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but if you've ever heard the story of how QWERTY came to dominate DVORAK (although the story is apparently untrue) or VHS came to dominate Betamax, then you know that 'best' doesn't always come to market dominance. E61 has certain advantages going for it both technical and in terms of compatibility. I love my electrically heated Bezzera grouphead, even if it is a pain to find portafilters for. While these things can and do make a difference, the difference is much less than that caused by the beans, the grind and the nut behind the portafilter.

Bottom Line · February 2013

on 1361935775:

I still don't know why E61 group head is better? some pre infusion is all I read Is there really any difference in the taste?

How do you test this? Same machine and swap heads? What about other variables like the jet size? I have a 2 group Promac and have repaired a Rancilio Epoca. Basically the same machine, different panels and e61 heads on the Promac. When I had them side by side the shots from the Promac were better. More body, complexity and smoother. But other variables? Shot temp, shot pressure etc....

C-man · February 2013

what is wrong with using a puck twice? I start one in the beginning of the week and change it about Friday.

galumay · February 2013

Some of my best shots come out of the little 43mm PF on the Caravel! The Izzo is 55mm, the ES-2 is 49mm, so many variations.

coffeehorse · February 2013

the E61 has the 'standard modern' extraction. high in body, slightly lacking in clarity, and it's very temperature stable and well behaved. But who actually needs temperature stable? A Slayer is a modern espresso machine designed (at a basic level) to replicate the pressure profile of a lever machine - preinfusion accompanied by a gradual pressure tail-off as the shot ends. The question as to whether the Slayer or the vintage lever produces better coffee is a strange one. While my E61's produce very good coffee, I know I prefer the cup out of the Lever for a variety of reasons - one being the lighter body and juicier espresso aggravates my stomach ulcer less, others being that I can taste more 'terroir' and that it's more forgiving in terms of dose & grind.

C-man · February 2013

Thanks CH that's pretty much what I was asking. I am guessing with 'terroir' you are referring to the earthy tastes or tones? and juicier to me seems more "lively" is that what you are describing? nothing to do with acid balance? I have also heard that levers pull a "softer shot" whatever that means. With my pressure control mod I can stretch out an extraction for any length of time keeping the mouse tail as thin as I want as I drop the pressure.

Lwowiak · February 2013

on 1362031785:

A Slayer is a modern espresso machine designed (at a basic level) to replicate the pressure profile of a lever machine - preinfusion accompanied by a gradual pressure tail-off as the shot ends. The question as to whether the Slayer or the vintage lever produces better coffee is a strange one. While my E61's produce very good coffee, I know I prefer the cup out of the Lever for a variety of reasons - one being the lighter body and juicier espresso aggravates my stomach ulcer less, others being that I can taste more 'terroir' and that it's more forgiving in terms of dose & grind.

You obviously have a preference for vintage levers, but I am curious if you believe modern levers also deliver the goods? I prefer the taste from a lever, but also the control and variables available to me. I have a preference for espresso with lots of body and find like you, that while "juicy" espresso has its place, it can be hard to stomach. Mind you, my tastes change and I love experimenting, but in the end look for coffees with balance. I do have a soft spot for a good Kenyan though, and use a triple basket to help concentrate the flavour.

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