Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

mycuppa · March 2013

Very interesting. I fully expect the Breville machines will last longer than perhaps 4 years and the gap of longevity between Italian and Chinese machines is maybe not as great as we would imagine. Like anything, it can last longer if used carefully and owners are aware of potential break points - there are some fundamental exceptions though. Not wanting to hijack the thread......but the Made In China issue is a powder keg that is not fully realized by the Australian public at large. Sure, they think about it for a few seconds, but wait until we start having some people being killed by sub-standard quality goods. More concerning is the limited lifespan of many common items these days made in China that are no longer able to be purchased or made in Australia. As a manufacturer, I see it every day - something breaking or failing unexpectedly and my neighbor in the factory next door experiences it so often it's becoming a horror story. Yesterday, one of my bag sealers broke with a half-inch metal rod and 5/6 inch pin shearing under light pressure. Upon inspection, the metal was utter crap and pin was welded with a poor attempt that was dangerous. You can't buy Australian made bag sealers and perhaps the better ones are now made in Taiwan. Last week I bought yet another trolley as they only last a couple of months. The wheels had nuts and bolts that fell off the first time we used the trolley and the load went all over a busy road leaving the trolley (and myself) stranded near the gutter with a red face. Of course, you don't expect the Chinese to tighten the nuts - they were not even finger tight. Alas, the spring washers and half the nuts went rolling into the drain grate. On my way home I called into the supplier and looked at the other trolleys in stock - yep, all cactus and a problem waiting to happen. I suppose it was going to take another 2 mins to tighten the bolts on the assembly line - thus more costly. A friend is a welding expert and recently spent the last couple of weeks fixing a batch of imported products that have been sold in Australia and that will ultimately end up in people being injured or killed. These products are not safe and will fail - thing is there are already hundreds out there unmodified in unsuspecting buyer's possession. Seems this line of business keeps him very gainfully employed as dodgy importers arrange for a few proper "mock-ups" to be passed as meeting standards compliance and then totally bypass the "local compliance mods" once the approval is granted so they can preserve margins. The stories he tells me about the stuff he can't and will not fix is just scary. This is not to say everything coming out from countries with cheap manufacturing costs is dangerous or not built to last, it certainly feeds the general consumer's desire for "constantly lowered prices".

derrilex · March 2013

You should sketch up your trolley requirements and get one custom made Jeff. I have custom made quite a few specialty trolleys for builders, nurseries, tree loppers and landscapers. They cost a lot but they go the distance

UNM · March 2013

on 1362196593:

interesting... to me it goes to the whole ethos/philosophy of the type of machine you purchase. The equation might be something like: BES = @$1,350 [approx. street price] for say 2-4 years' longevity vs @$3,000 for a high quality Italian machine which [theoretically] should last a lifetime. A

Priceless Not often I see the phrase 'high quality Italian machine' in a sentence. :rofl: You crack me up. Really, China is just the current scapegoat. Plenty of excellent stuff comes out of China, plenty of crap too, but even then, a lot of that is consistent and manufactured to the intended specification. I have seen manufactured products from China that are in good nick at over 2000 years old. I have seen a $3000+ espresso machine from Italy with shoddy welds and incorrectly placed pop rivets that foul the mounts for the plastic feet.

mycuppa · March 2013

on 1362206860:

You should sketch up your trolley requirements and get one custom made Jeff. I have custom made quite a few specialty trolleys for builders, nurseries, tree loppers and landscapers. They cost a lot but they go the distance

Yep - my friend the welder has come in handy for many a custom made item or modification - including changing the design of the paddles in a drum roaster we owned a long time ago, fabricating a new rear bearing housing for yet another roaster that kept screaming from over-use, building some special tubs and modifying chaff cyclones. As well as repairing a lot of broken stuff, it seems we are always in need of something special that you just can't buy or that has suffered from poor original design.

derrilex · March 2013

That's what its all about. Modify, improve and get it done. Its the Aussie way. Listen up Breville. :laugh:

admin · March 2013

on 1362204433:

Very interesting. I fully expect the Breville machines will last longer than perhaps 4 years and the gap of longevity between Italian and Chinese machines is maybe not as great as we would imagine. Like anything, it can last longer if used carefully and owners are aware of potential break points - there are some fundamental exceptions though...

Actually would be interested to know what some of the more technically-minded [eg AM or FC] have to say on this one. Is there any reason why the newer materials/alloys that I assume are used in the more 'appliance'-type machines [for lightness] are in any way inferior to the ones that are used in the more traditional [Italian]-style machines or in fact, is there no reason why they should last any less well, durability-wise?

conikal · March 2013

some of the comparisons are obviou.. Copper piping vs plastic piping copper/SSteel boilers vs aluminium boilers Brass valves vs plastic valves Etc Etc All these items are "functional".. but some of them are more durable, long lasting, and repairable if they fail.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2013

on 1362284777:

Actually would be interested to know what some of the more technically-minded [eg AM or FC] have to say on this one. Is there any reason why the newer materials/alloys that I assume are used in the more 'appliance'-type machines [for lightness] are in any way inferior to the ones that are used in the more traditional [Italian]-style machines or in fact, is there no reason why they should last any less well, durability-wise?

I wouldnt dream of commenting on anything to do with brevile. We are not service agents for the brand and I dont have any experience of the db and have never looked inside. That said, as we are service agents for 2 other appliance brands I can say this (remembering I am not saying it refers to brevile): I dont necessarily think materials used are a problem...eg nylon piping has been used inside some machines for yonks and I cant see a problem with it as long it is routed properly...ie if there is a problem, it would be a design problem rather than a material problem. In fact there is one particular applicance type domestic machine that uses copper pipe in one particular internal application....and it keeps failing. It is not the material, it is the design spec size of the pipe which is inadequate for the job it is supposed to keep doing ad infinitum. Some components dont seem to be as good as the european ones they are copying...again design spec not material. Hope that helps. One more comment: I think any diff between an "appliance" home use machine (perhaps built in China), and a traditional Italian coffee machine manufacturer home use machine, is in the older design of the Italian machines. They are in the main, simpler and made of "traditional" materials with european sourced components, perhaps as a result they are heavier, perhaps in todays day and age overbuilt, predominantly metal, etc etc etc. And that is probably why they will be expected to outlast an appliance model by a considerable time. Simplicity is good. The more you design and engineer the more service possibilities you design into the appliance. But there is no doubt that espresso machines are probably easier to use now than ever before. So perhaps a trade off is necessary. Older design machines are harder to learn to use, so there is more possibility of people giving up on them before they "get it". Newer design machines are easier to "get it", biut have a thousand more contriols and bits in them so are more likely to have inconvenient service difficulties over time... So I guess I'm looking at design spec rather than materials if there is going to be any diff over time in the durability of appliance type vs traditional type espresso machines.

RichardM · March 2013

on 1362445088:

So many blame the country of manufacture. But it comes back to design and the specks requested.

In the industry I work in (photocopier repair) there is no difference notable from machines that come from China vs Japan. The difference DEFINITELY comes from the design. Every machine we look back upon that has issues, it's an issue of design or lack of testing that has caused us grief. Whenever you look at something and say to yourself "WTF were they thinking", it's a case of the engineering team, not the manufacturers.

Kelsey · March 2013

The iPhone is made in China - anti-Apple sentiment aside, it'd be hard to deny that those phones are extremely well made.

conikal · March 2013

on 1362445088:

If the material is failing, it is due to those that chose it and or provided the specs for the material!!!

Whilst that can often be the case, i can attest to the fact that even some simple well understood materials ( Steel, Aluminium) , can often have dramatically different properties even when closely specified , Tested, and QC inspected, depending on supply source.. The real art of design is to select a material that has a wide range of functionality for the application. One of the big obstacles to quality and longevity is always cost. Often when something is copied, the exact material specification cannot be determined and a "similar" ( or cheaper) material is substituted.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2013

on 1362466192:

...........One of the big obstacles to quality and longevity is always cost..... Often when something is copied, the exact material specification cannot be determined and a "similar" ( or cheaper) material is substituted......

Yes I agree with first part of quote but disagree with the second, and it refers directly back to the first......its not that an exact spec cant be determined, its that the "copier" is trying to make something siml-are for cheap-are. Works every time. Not that I would dream of ever saying anything like that about the machine that is the subject of this discussion (or was until we went off on a tangent?

).

repeet · March 2013

Just an update from my machine. Picked it up last Thursday from Sparkies. They changed the temperature sensor again and the opv valve as directed by Breville. It didn't even work the first time I turned it on. I said to them I didn't believe this would fix it, it didn't fit the symptoms but said I'd give it a go. Breville sent a courier today and picked it up. I think they should have left me a new machine when they did. Now into the 5th week with no coffee.

Brett H · March 2013

on 1363089040:

You want a loan unit... or maybe even a EM7000 to play with ? If EM7000 you would need to put a few words down as a short review :thumb:

Do it, do it, do it! Some good has to come from this mess!

derrilex · March 2013

Agree. Go the 7000 all day. :thumb:

Koffee_Kosmo · March 2013

A competitive review Sunbeam & Breville as you are very familiar with the Breville it would make interesting reading

ajst2duk · March 2013

on 1363088889:

Just an update from my machine. Picked it up last Thursday from Sparkies. They changed the temperature sensor again and the opv valve as directed by Breville. It didn't even work the first time I turned it on. I said to them I didn't believe this would fix it, it didn't fit the symptoms but said I'd give it a go. Breville sent a courier today and picked it up. I think they should have left me a new machine when they did. Now into the 5th week with no coffee.

Jeepers - I thought I had a tough run, but you now officially take the crown. I agree, they should have swapped it for a new machine and taken yours back to the R&D lab

ajst2duk · March 2013

Here's http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/drink/home-coffee-machine-road-test-20130302-2fcmm.html an interesting review of machines - despite using "professional" baristas, the write-up does come across as being pretty light weight, anyway they do like the Breville

repeet · March 2013

on 1363089040:

You want a loan unit... EM6910 or maybe even a EM7000 to play with ? If EM7000 you would need to put a few words down as a short review :thumb:

Thank you for the kind offer. I have to have surgery on my hand next week so wont really be able to use it anyway. I had the 6910 for 5 years before the I got the Breville. It was a good machine for the price as well. The Breville is definitely better but probably not twice the price better. If The EM7000 was out when I bought the Breville I probably would have bought that. The EM6910 is actually in my trailer for the next dump run :-) it had a pretty good run but the collar was worn out again and the portafilter was worn and it seemed low on steam pressure as well.

derrilex · March 2013

Dont dump it. Gift it to AM for spares. He has a fleet of them out there to maintain :thumb: Where abouts in Brisbane are you ?

repeet · March 2013

I'm at New Beith, just south of Greenbank. I

derrilex · March 2013

Still worth it for bits and pieces. Geez, you're just about at Jimboomba. What a massive PITA going to Albion for the Breville. AM is only a few mins from Albion

repeet · March 2013

Yes it is a long way. I've made 5 trips there now between dropping it off and picking back up. Thats 10 tunnel tolls I've had to pay as well which is about $40 Breville better do better this time.

UNM · March 2013

If it was me, I would tell Breville that I require a new replacement machine if they are unable to repair satisfactorily after a defined number of attempts. Do it politely, in advance of machine being returned, ensure they log it, state it as a requirement not a request. Chances are they will happily comply. If not, a chat to the ombudsman may be in order. Most large companies are pretty good at dealing with such issues. Just don't crack it with the person on the other end of the phone as that just gets everyone upset. Reading your posts I doubt you would, but not every customer is as patient and I have been on the receiving end of a few tirades during my time in customer service.

derrilex · March 2013

Surely the lemon laws would kick in with this machine now ?

Kelsey · March 2013

Yep, don't forget that the statutory warranty period is by law no longer just a year, but whatever a reasonable expectation should be for a product of its cost and quality.

repeet · March 2013

I did call Breville today. Just politely asked if they have received it and for some kind of ETA. The response was that it turned up today and no ETA could be given. I then expressed my disappointment in my repair service so far and hope they can put this a high priority as it has now been 5 weeks. Pretty much got brushed aside, don't think I'd buy another Breville product again. I'm a pretty reasonable and patient person but this is a bit much considering its there most expensive product by a long way!!

derrilex · March 2013

I think a call to fair trading would not be out of order at this point. Unforgivable IMO and I wouldn't blame you for never touching another Breville product again.

conikal · March 2013

on 1363254749:

I did call Breville today. Just politely asked if they have received it and for some kind of ETA. The response was that it turned up today and no ETA could be given. !!

Just to be clear.....are you actually talking to Breville,.. or to their "Aproved Service Center" ?? you may need to "push it up the ladder" a bit to get to someone who can make things happen. A few Emails and calls to HQ would be my approach. Good luck.

repeet · March 2013

Yes, definitely Breville. Sparkies have given up and told me last time to call Breville if it failed again, which it did the first time I turned it on. Will call Breville again tomorrow afternoon for an update. I think I have been too polite when talking to them, its just my nature.

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