Should you ever post negative reviews?

admin · September 2013

PS lastly on this subject, it might be worth noting the amount of support we

FreshCoffee2 · September 2013

Quite...he has a vested interest in being "incenced", and brings to mind the question....from his point of view, is he upset about ramifications wrt "the coffee" the cafe is using, or the cafes ability to make a "good cuppa" irrespective. Not the same thing of course. And for the benefit of the readers, it is probably time to reiterate (as happens from time to time)......what industry are "we"/"they" talking about please? A cafe is part of the food industry is it not? Just because it uses an espresso machine to make a cuppa, doesnt give it instant right of access to "the coffee industry", which is an entirely separate industry and does completely different things with coffee. On the basis of cafes being in the "coffee industry", then they must also be in the dairy industry, the sugar industry, the fruit and veg industry, the meat industry, the crockery industry, and the employment industry...... Che????? Running a coffee roasting, coffee bean wholseale supply, espresso breakdown and repair and espresso machine import and sales business, doesnt make coffee (roasting) industry part of the cafe industry and vice versa and running one does not mean that one can walk straight into the shoes of the other and do it well or even survive, or even know what they are doing. Many people do seem to get all this mixed up.... If Crema Mag (lifestyle offshoot of magazine publishing industry???) were to accept paid advertisements and advertorials from the cafe sector of the food industry, then perhaps it may not wish to review cafes. If it doesnt, there shouldnt be a problem, as long as whatever is done, is done respectfully. Should one bother using tweeting as a medium for reviews, given tweets are so restrictive in the volume of what can be written there?

admin · September 2013

on 1379550193:

Should one bother using tweeting as a medium for reviews, given tweets are so restrictive in the volume of what can be written there?

mmm... a 'she' actually, and this was actually what prompted the raising the whole thread; ie she conceded that we may have had a poor coffee experience, but questioned 'how dare we tweet about it'... On your last point [quoted], this brings up the ancilliary question that I posed in my original post - ie what about a tweet - does that constitute a 'review'? As I mentioned, we use twitter more as a 'stream of consciousness' of our impressions, especially including relevant pics that modern technology [ie the smartphone] allows - eg a shot of the cafe, the coffee itself, perhaps the barista pulling a shot] - we don't see this as a formal review for the very reason that you mentioned - simply not enough space to do it justice.

Intense Coffee · September 2013

I am not a real Twitter user and have no idea of the Caf

admin · September 2013

on 1379565141:

I am not a real Twitter user and have no idea of the Caf

adelaidecoffee · September 2013

Just wondering how do you score the coffee @admin ? - what categories, scoring system, etc do you use. So each of you have a score sheet at the cafe and write notes, scores etc as you go I would assume - or does one person write everything down. When you arrive do you tell them your there for a review - or when you leave or not at all? Perhaps though they work out what you are doing. I did a review once and told them when I left that I had just done a review - they were not happy as they would of prefered to know before hand. Thats not a true review then. Just a few q's about your reviewing process

Hope you dont mind.

askthecoffeeguy · September 2013

on 1379592231:

Just wondering how do you score the coffee @admin ? - what categories, scoring system, etc do you use. So each of you have a score sheet at the cafe and write notes, scores etc as you go I would assume - or does one person write everything down. When you arrive do you tell them your there for a review - or when you leave or not at all? Perhaps though they work out what you are doing. I did a review once and told them when I left that I had just done a review - they were not happy as they would of prefered to know before hand. Thats not a true review then. Just a few q's about your reviewing process Hope you dont mind.

As someone who's reviewed numerous times for crema (bearing in mind that the "offending article" was not a review as such), I can tell you that in past incidence two coffees at a time, being a flat white (or similar as long as its consistent) and an espresso are always ordered and are both rated for body, acidity, aroma, presentation, after taste, balance, sweetness etc And each short listed and or recommended cafe is visited twice, anonymously by all members of the tasting panel, then our score sheets are calibrated and winners announced accordingly Its a painstaking and at times excruciating process as I for one cant put a coffee down if I really like it no matter how many I've tried, and on one occasion I managed to polish of 15 coffees in one day - didn't sleep too much afterwards, though! The process is also anonymous although invariably some tasters are recognised by the glitterati, but usually not until after coffees have been ordered and consumed - I for one tend to go commando (or should that read incognito?) when I'm out and about tasting coffees (even for personal preference when it has nothing to do with "judging" coffee), so I can impartially (as possible) observe whats going on But its a pretty thorough and meticulous process by a very experienced tasting panel comprised of industry personnel (like myself - I also worked as a sommelier for 10 years so I'd like to think that my palate is up to scratch), as well as coffee judges, trainers, and prominent industry commentators So I'd like to think that the process is pretty thorough, but just reiterating that theres a difference between judging cafes based solely on their coffee offerings (albeit other factors come into play in the advent of a 'draw'), as part of a coordinated group assessment, with a particular end result in mind, and offering a personal evaluation through social media Cheers, ACg

admin · September 2013

on 1379592231:

Just wondering how do you score the coffee @admin ? - what categories, scoring system, etc do you use. So each of you have a score sheet at the cafe and write notes, scores etc as you go I would assume - or does one person write everything down. When you arrive do you tell them your there for a review - or when you leave or not at all? Perhaps though they work out what you are doing. I did a review once and told them when I left that I had just done a review - they were not happy as they would of prefered to know before hand. Thats not a true review then. Just a few q's about your reviewing process Hope you dont mind.

Looks like AcG has answered a lot of the questions about process [above] but yes, definitely anonymously. As I mentioned above we've got a pretty thick skin, so not worried about some indignant twitter comments; however to my mind [as questioned above] there are several questions that come out of this, that still merit some consideration: 1. considering it was a 'rogue' result [if it was a few rogue shots], can so-called top cafe be expected to pump out a perfect shot, time after time - ie that realistic? 2. is it correct for us to say: 'that was our experience, at that time on that day' [especially given that, that's how twitter works]?

Brett H · September 2013

Ah yes, the moment in time disclaimer. I've always felt that if a judge has to use the 'moment in time' disclaimer it's usually only before they deliver a less than popular/desired result. The 'moment in time' can soften the blow but it also weakens the adjudication.

Thundergod · September 2013

Firstly, I use twitter and read the initial few tweets as they happened. (does that make me twitterati?) Secondly, I've reviewed a few cafes via a well known site. Thirdly I've reviewed the cafe in question and know one of the guys. On the occasion of my visit, my acquaintance wasn't in; in effect my review was anonymous as most of my first visit reviews are. On that occasion I didn't find the coffee bland at all but the opposite and was compelled to order a second. I take it as a given that most online reviews refer to one occasion unless specified otherwise. Negative reviews? I've given a few. Not many overall but I do tend to mostly visit places recommended by people I trust. I've gambled a few times though and been the first to review a cafe. If they aren't somewhere I'd go back to you'll know by the score and comments. Negative reviews serve as a warning to those looking for better than average coffee. Anyone familiar with my reviews know I have my favourites (Foxy Brown is one

). With the ones I wouldn't go back to I tend not to give on the spot feedback to. I think ACg and others said it above "what's the point". Those that should know better have been told and in most cases (not all) graciously accepted the feedback and offered me another coffee. No hard feelings appear to have been harboured when I've visited again. As I was reading this thread I found myself asking if feedback had been given, as I always do when reading reviews. I encourage you and others to give the feedback at the time. ACg is right. You can't fix something if you don't know at the time. Caring cafe owners want to know. Pretentious w@nker$ think they know better than customers. I've shot from the hip at some big name places when I found my visit didn't live up to expectations. And yes I did mention my disappointment to them before writing it up. I am not a Q grader. I doubt my palate is good enough. But even on a bad day I know what is a good or bad coffee. I have a few followers of my reviews so they deserve for me to tell it like it is.

admin · September 2013

I guess the point I will re-iterate is that the criticism from the [supposedly unbiased] industry person was that we shouldn't post a negative review, because "her mother taught her a long time ago, that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all". I guess this is the overall principle we're debating. cheers A

Rider · September 2013

An interesting read, Admin, so long as you gave a 'feedback sandwich' within your 140 characters, then I think Crema is on the right path. A big thing in VET is not to give the converse - i.e. a 'sh!t sandwich'. This should flow on to other areas such as reviews. If they can't cope with a feedback sandwich then they seem a little precious. I don't read twitter by the way so I haven't seen said comments. Just putting forward my observations from 15 odd years of training and facilitation. Rider

UNM · September 2013

on 1379657102:

An interesting read, Admin, so long as you gave a 'feedback sandwich' within your 140 characters, then I think Crema is on the right path.

Twitter doesn't totally restrict you to 140 characters. If you wish, you can post a lengthy piece, carefully split and numbered from 1/14 through to 14/14. Just saying...

littleroundman · September 2013

on 1379629897:

1. considering it was a 'rogue' result [if it was a few rogue shots], can so-called top cafe be expected to pump out a perfect shot, time after time - ie that realistic ?

Perhaps not to the coffee aficionado, but, surely the "average" consumers (if there is such a thing) who makes up the great percentage of a cafes' clientele has a right to expect consistent quality for his / her hardearned ESPECIALLY if he / she is unaware of the complexities involved in producing a shot of consistent quality. Otherwise, the cafe industry will degenerate into one which not only accepts, but sanctions, mediocrity. Until cafes prominently display an honest disclaimer explaining the difficulties involved in making the "perfect" cup and offering to rectify any shortcomings without question, many consumers see negative reviews as their only viable form of protest and the numbers of such reviews will only increase, IM(very)HO

C-man · September 2013

I for one would want to know the total truth, otherwise what is the point of reading a review? I also agree with Jeff, a second cup should have been requested to establish the base line.

admin · September 2013

Yep, as mentioned above, we definitely tried several. FYI, the responses were of two main types: 1. we love it [it's our local] and you can't possibly have had a bad coffee there [therefore you're being malicious] and 2. you should never post a negative review [ie 'if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it"]... hence the reason for this discussion.

hiphipharar · September 2013

on 1379746262:

I for one would want to know the total truth.

Well there's the rub. How do you know you are getting it? Just because something is written doesn't make it true, especially with the relative anonymity of Twitter.

askthecoffeeguy · September 2013

on 1379754407:

Well there's the rub. How do you know you are getting it? Just because something is written doesn't make it true, especially with the relative anonymity of Twitter.

Not sure what the protocol is but I had someone complain about the price of our organic produce on social media yesterday and when I pointed out that the price we charged reflected the actual costs associated with the chemical free production of the raw materials I received a bunch of verbal abuse as a result So I informed the person in question that i'm not interested in competing on price for the bottom end of the market for the lowest possible quality, and that if price point is the main section criteria, the local tuck shop is a wonderful alternative Pretty sure I handled that one with subtlety and diplomacy...

WotB · September 2013

Reviews tend to massage the egos of the establishment. In this case, it is corrective feedback, yet it is taken as slagging them off. Doesn't help that the owners of the cafe and one of the most vocal defenders of the cafe all worked together at another coffee business. In the case of the review in question, it may have taken differently had it been framed from the beginning - "I'm concerned about the quality of the product; it doesn't seem to be the high standard you would like it to be." If you never hear any negative feedback, you never grow...

admin · September 2013

on 1379750879:

Yep, as mentioned above, we definitely tried several. FYI, the responses were of two main types: 1. we love it [it's our local] and you can't possibly have had a bad coffee there [therefore you're being malicious] and 2. you should never post a negative review [ie 'if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it"]... hence the reason for this discussion.

don't want to labour this, but still think it comes down to the above 2 reasons for someone being upset. With respect to the first one [ie #1 above], to be honest the indignant tweets of a few people who don't know much about coffee doesn't really worry me. The only one that's important [from my point of view] is what the more coffee-educated among us think, and that's where I'm concerned with criticism #2. Remember this came from a so-called 'industry' person and certainly our own highly-esteemed FC also takes this point of view. I guess my [personal] problem with this stance is it goes against my own sense of 'freedom of information' and freedom to give your opinion [if unbiased, and where you genuinely believe it's warranted]. However, there's always downside in this, in that if it's a negative review then obviously someone's going to be hurt/disappointed - there's the conundrum! A PS or if you're of the same mind as Mark D [mentioned above] who seems to believe that there is a need for reviews, both good & bad, but the main thing is the quality of the reviewers - which is the position we actually agree with!

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