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Extraction Amounts?

conanconan
edited January 1970 in Coffee Industry related subjects
Hi Guys,
Just wondering, when measuring the extraction amount (30 mls for a standard shot) do you measure from the top of the crema or just the "liquid" underneath?

I was taught that it is from the top of the crema, but have been told by my rep that no it's just the "coffee".
This seems weird to me because if the crema is not part of the "coffee" why do i aim to get a nice crema on my espresso?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance!
:)
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Comments

  • sharkboysharkboy
    I'd suggest going with a measurement that included the crema. If I use reasonably fresh beans I quite often get nothing but crema during the initial pour. The pour usually settles out to be about half crema and half espresso. More and more these days I pay closer attention to the flow rate and colour of the pour rather than the stop watch and volume. I don't disregard the empirical measurements, but you can usually tell when you get a pour that is progressing too quickly or too slowly and then make the necessary adjustments. Stephen
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  • johnjohn
    The 'crema' is usually considered to be part of the extraction volume. However, be aware that when using 'fresh' coffee (say only a few days old) the 'crema' can be more than a few mm thick. This could give a 'false' reading on the volume in the cup or glass. An espresso is often defined as being '25-30 ml of espresso with a crema about 5 mm thick'. John
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  • over_extractedover_extracted
    To me different coffee blends require different ml amounts but i allways exclude the crema in my shots if you taste the crema and then taste the liquid bellow you will taste a slight difference.OE :P
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  • ReschsmoothReschsmooth
    I find, with beans less than about 5 days from roasting, the crema reduces by about 1cm in a standard espresso cup. I still use the espresso to measure the volume, however.
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  • sharkboysharkboy
    For those of you excluding the crema from your extraction volume measurements you might want to tell some of the competitors in the last AASCA barista competition that they have left their pours way short... Warning big file and even bigger crema  :) http://www.haddon.org/Images/Coffee/AASCA 2005 Heats/20050318-170154.jpg
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  • johnjohn
    In the finals the espresso shots were measured and if the pours were short, I believe the contestant was penalised.
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  • mattyjmattyj
    in a cafe, it's probably different, but at home, i measure by the appearance of the crema. I used to pull double shots with ahlf going into a measuring shot glass, and pull the shot til it reached the 30ml mark, including crema, before it settled. The crema was often fairly blonde and the coffee was often watery. Now i'm grinding finer and packing a bit more into the basket, which means that my shots taste richer, and are shorter ... i'm getting about 35ml double ristretto's (not measuring anymore), because i'm ending the shot when the pour starts to show blonding. My point is, to me, the liquid amount is a guide, not a rule. If it tastes better, it doesn't have to be 30mls. probably different in comps though - glad i'm not competing!
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  • sharkboysharkboy
    Pinot You would have the answer. In barista competitions do you measure the shot including crema or just the dark espresso liquid? My post with the attached photo was to back up my point of view that if you were to measure shots, you would have to include crema. IMHO MattyJ I'm of the same opinion. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the colour and flow rate are what I pay most attention too. Not to mention the taste in cup :)
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  • johnjohn
    Sharkboy In the judging for the NSW heats of the recent AASCA competition, we were told to include the 'crema' in the espresso volume. In the heats no measurements were taken and only the obvious short or long pours would have been penalised. The 'correct' extraction volume is highly contentious. There are a zillion variables. Easiest thing to do is to watch the extraction and stop it when the 'blonding', 'white spots' or whatever one wants to call it occurrs. When the crema starts to get those white spots the ground coffee has been exhausted of all it flavours. Anything that follows is bitterness. My preference is to always use a double basket (18-20 grams) and to stop the extraction around 15-20 ml for my ristretto or 20 ml for a piccolo or 25-30 ml for a regular drink. John
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  • mattyjmattyj
    My preference is to always use a double basket (18-20 grams) and to stop the extraction around 15-20 ml for my ristretto or 20 ml for a piccolo or 25-30 ml for a regular drink.
    Out of curiosity (coz there's prbably a thousand ways to make/define a ristretto), do you adjust your grind or dose or tamp when making ristretto's, or do you simply stop pulling the shot at 15/20 mls? I had a cracker (really bloody marvelous) of a double ristretto yesterday in campos, and it's obvious there's an adjustment of one (or all three?) of those factors. Interestingly, a double ristretto was still only 15-20mls, whereas most cafes i frequent pull a double ristretto as 30-45mls. Oh yeah, it's also the only cafe i've been to where the barista get's genuinely excited when pulling a good shot - the guy who made mine was grinning from ear to ear when he brought mine out, i think i saw him rubbing his hands together while he was watching the shot!
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  • johnjohn
    Mattyj Apologies for not responding to your question. This post seems to have ended up down the list. You said: "Out of curiosity (coz there's prbably a thousand ways to make/define a ristretto), do you adjust your grind or dose or tamp when making ristretto's, or do you simply stop pulling the shot at 15/20 mls?" I usually don't play with my grind or tamping. I just stop the extraction aroung the 15-20 ml mark for the ristretto. As mentioned I use a larger basket around 20 grams and I find that I can achieve an excellent extraction. At home my extractions are about 20 ml for a piccolo latte or 30-40 ml for a latte. This is based on using about 20 grams. Everyone has their own method. Possibly easiest to say that there is 'no right or wrong way'. It comes down to whatever works best for you. On the volume for a doppio ristretto, this varies. Some use a double basket and 15-20 ml. Others use the double basket and extract 30-40 ml. For me, if I was after a double hit. I would prefer to order two separate coffees. Each being the first 20 ml from the double basket. John
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  • mattyjmattyj
    Thanks for the response! My method for ristretto is to overdose (technically), so for a double i use about 18g. This gives me about 20mls, which never actually pours, it just drips. Once the pour starts to thicken up, the blonding starts, which is when i end the shot, by which time, it's around 30sec. If i continued to extract as a 60ml double, it would just be really watery. I guess i like double ristretto's over single ristretto's because in the cafe i frequent, it's a bit more of an intense flavour, and i quite like it! That and with machine and grinder limits at home, playing with grind settings is either spot on or way out, so now that i'm dialled in for really short double ristretto's, i'm content!
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