Snake oil and other things.

Dry_bean.

You know I get a little pissed off with self proclaimed experts and retailers trying to tout their products telling me (and anyone else gullible enough to listen) that if I don

Thundergod

on 1293676507:

You know I get a little pissed off

Only a little? 

on 1293676507:

It

Dry_bean.

on 1293681388:

on 1293676507:

You know I get a little pissed off

Only a little? 

on 1293676507:

It

beanflying

Rant Rant Rant  ;D Spent the day alternating playing with my 2 custom fitted 53mm Pullman Wenge handled (name dropping I know ) did a few kg for the day and a still joy to use every time. Price long since forgotten as they are a great tool. That all said my old slightly lose fitting Rattleware $60 tamper for my old Solis got the job done too. Oh and I run Reverse osmosis water in the Izzo as we are on Bore water and my machine hasn't blown up in spite of being told I was wrong by one person in particular  ::)

Dry_bean.

on 1293702811:

Rant Rant Rant  ;D Spent the day alternating playing with my 2 custom fitted 53mm Pullman Wenge handled (name dropping I know ) did a few kg for the day and a still joy to use every time. Price long since forgotten as they are a great tool. That all said my old slightly lose fitting Rattleware $60 tamper for my old Solis got the job done too. Oh and I run Reverse osmosis water in the Izzo as we are on Bore water and my machine hasn't blown up in spite of being told I was wrong by one person in particular  ::)

Now I wonder who would have told you that ::) reputations are a bit like excrement, they tend to stick. ;D

Dry_bean.

As an update, descaled the Bezzera the other day, it's now 18 months old, came up clean as a whistle and is running better than the day I took delivery and I still ain't usin a water filter. :o

Unknown

just curious if you find a difference in the taste with and without a filter. Also curious about the health of your boiler

Dry_bean.

on 1300960012:

just curious if you find a difference in the taste with and without a filter. Also curious about the health of your boiler

How can I possibly answer these couple of questions objectively? Re the taste with and without a filter, as I said in my original post, don't own a filter, never have and never will, so I simply cant give you an answer, however what I can tell you is that I believe my coffee to be well above the standard served in most cafe's, Mrs DB just returned from a fortnight in Melbourne, she's an avid coffee drinker and knows her stuff, her comment, your coffee is better than anything I had over there, my guests are always appreciative and back up for more while making complimentary remarks, guess what I'm trying to say is, it doesn't taste like a chemical soup. Now as to the condition of the boiler off my Bezzera, once again, I'm not in a position to enlighten you as the machine is only 18 months old and I've had no reason to strip it to find out, what I can tell you is on buying the Galatea I sold my 10 year old heavily used Silvia which was also running as well as when I bought it, I maintained the Silvia in the same manner, regular descale and back flush, only problems I ever had were a failed boiler thermostat and wore the locking lugs out on the portafilter, the guy that bought it is still using it 18 months later and it's running just as well as it always had. What more can I say? guess at this point your wishing you never asked. ::)

blanyon

What sort of water are you using? Do you know what the tds is ?

Dry_bean.

on 1301043922:

What sort of water are you using? Do you know what the tds is ?

Mostly tap water, sometimes rain, TDS in the vicinity of 100 mg/l Why do I get the impression you guys are trying to help me with a problem that I simply don't have.

blanyon

on 1301046003:

on 1301043922:

What sort of water are you using? Do you know what the tds is ?

Mostly tap water, sometimes rain, TDS in the vicinity of 100 mg/l Why do I get the impression you guys are trying to help me with a problem that I simply don't have.

Not trying to help you just trying to understand more. If you had no scale with 300 mg/l that would be very interesting but at 100 mg/l that is a bit more understandable. I believe that is about the tds that is advised for espresso water (after filtration). I am on bore water so am very careful with filtration and I still have some scale. Cheers Brett

beanflying

There is still bits as AM mentioned in a group descaling with chemicals simply won't work perfectly on. I remember seeing some pics of a mushroom (think it might have been Thundergods? ) that was really claggy. I suspect this is due to low velocity flows in certain areas being natural collection points for minerals and harder to clean for the same reasons. 100mg/l is fairly good but consider our local supply at 800+ mg/l :P then to be fair $500 systems are on the cheap end to clean it up. Water treatment needs to be done on a case by case basis and sweeping statements about what is needed on the net I agree are OTT.

Dry_bean.

on 1301449985:

There is still bits as AM mentioned in a group descaling with chemicals simply won't work perfectly on. I remember seeing some pics of a mushroom (think it might have been Thundergods? ) that was really claggy. I suspect this is due to low velocity flows in certain areas being natural collection points for minerals and harder to clean for the same reasons. 100mg/l is fairly good but consider our local supply at 800+ mg/l :P then to be fair $500 systems are on the cheap end to clean it up. Water treatment needs to be done on a case by case basis and sweeping statements about what is needed on the net I agree are OTT.

Your not thinking of going into the filter business now are you BF? Seriously, the great thing about forums is provided people are civil they can express all sorts of crazy idea's and others are equally free to disagree. I don't feel feel my idea's re water filters and the purveyors of them are over the top, it was a response to the constant barrage of "no filter will kill your machine and make your coffee taste like crap" constantly being rammed down the throats of members in the other place. So we have the espresso machine retailers looking for an add on sale with every machine sold and at the opposite end of the spectrum we have the likes of me, never had a problem with scale in the time I've owned coffee machines (yeah, I know, just lucky" My opinion is that the average person with a reasonable supply of water is wasting money installing a water filter and would be just as well served descaling regularly. In reply to AM's comment re not opening the boiler , I remove the mushroom before and after the process, it's usually showing minor traces of scale before and comes out as smooth as a baby's bum afterward, good enough for me. I agree, 800+ mg/l is pretty high, have never had to deal with the situation so not sure how I would handle it.

RichardM

The number of people I see talking about filtration, and spending $500+ on it, worrying about scale, chlorine, fluoride etc..... I just use my own collected rain water...through a standard 100+ year old designed Doulton filter. Seems to do the job fine. Six months on, my machine gets descaled once a month, and there aren't any scary chunks or colours coming out of it. In fact, I doubt with the water I'm using that even descaling that often is necessary. People do get very heated that their solution for anything is better than another though. I love things like my Pullman tamper....is it necessary - not at all. Do I regret buying it? No.

E61

on 1301449985:

100mg/l is fairly good but consider our local supply at 800+ mg/l :P then to be fair $500 systems are on the cheap end to clean it up. Water treatment needs to be done on a case by case basis and sweeping statements about what is needed on the net I agree are OTT.

If anyone's interested I have some water test strips to give away if you are curious about the hardness of your water. (Just PM Me) I'm not an expert  and don't sell filteration systems but it might be interesting if people post their results. Maybe tell us what the reading was and where you are and how you think it affects your coffee (if at all) If nothing else it might prove to dispel some of the mistruths flying around.

Vinitasse

on 1303537184:

If anyone's interested I have some water test strips to give away if you are curious about the hardness of your water. (Just PM Me)

Hey there everyone... just used the test strip E61 so kindly sent to me and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I always wondered why there was no scale build up in my coffee machine or kettle and now I know why. My water tested at a GPG (grains per gallon) of 0~3, or 0~50 PPM (mg/L) Pretty bloody good! Thanks E61

RichardM

on 1304314308:

on 1303537184:

If anyone's interested I have some water test strips to give away if you are curious about the hardness of your water. (Just PM Me)

Hey there everyone... just used the test strip E61 so kindly sent to me and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I always wondered why there was no scale build up in my coffee machine or kettle and now I know why. My water tested at a GPG (grains per gallon) of 0~3, or 0~50 PPM (mg/L) Pretty bloody good! Thanks E61

Would be good to know your location/water supply in the post for reference. I'm waiting on my test strips, so hopefully will know mine soon.

Vinitasse

on 1304318723:

on 1304314308:

on 1303537184:

If anyone's interested I have some water test strips to give away if you are curious about the hardness of your water. (Just PM Me)

Hey there everyone... just used the test strip E61 so kindly sent to me and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I always wondered why there was no scale build up in my coffee machine or kettle and now I know why. My water tested at a GPG (grains per gallon) of 0~3, or 0~50 PPM (mg/L) Pretty bloody good! Thanks E61

Would be good to know your location/water supply in the post for reference. I'm waiting on my test strips, so hopefully will know mine soon.

Whoops... I should have also let you know that I am located on the Mornington Peninsula, 80km southeast of Melbourne and my local water supplier is South East Water which draws its local supply from the Cardinia and Devilbend reservoirs

DoubleRistretto

on 1293676507:

You know I get a little pissed off with self proclaimed experts and retailers trying to tout their products telling me (and anyone else gullible enough to listen) that if I don

Dry_bean.

'should be exactly 15 seconds between grinding and extraction' dR  :-\ [/quote] Sorry DR, cant let this one past, my feeling is it should be either 14 or 16 seconds between grinding and extraction, 15 is an uneven number and we all know exactly what that means. ::)

Dry_bean.

on 1304472046:

an 13 is what   ???

Darn, first mistake I've made in years. ::) Correction made. :-[

RichardM

on 1303537184:

on 1301449985:

100mg/l is fairly good but consider our local supply at 800+ mg/l :P then to be fair $500 systems are on the cheap end to clean it up. Water treatment needs to be done on a case by case basis and sweeping statements about what is needed on the net I agree are OTT.

If anyone's interested I have some water test strips to give away if you are curious about the hardness of your water. (Just PM Me) I'm not an expert  and don't sell filteration systems but it might be interesting if people post their results. Maybe tell us what the reading was and where you are and how you think it affects your coffee (if at all) If nothing else it might prove to dispel some of the mistruths flying around.

I got my test strip today and tested my tank water (which is what I run through the machine). It was pretty well half way between 0 and 50ppm - so let's call it 25ppm, which is fantastic - no wonder nothing happens when I run descaling solution through my machine.

Rider

on 1293676507:

...if I ain

RichardM

I've said it before and I'll say it again - for the cost of a good water filter...just collect your own, run through a cheap filter so it's fine to drink, and it will be better than running town water through a >$500 filter, both for taste, and for your coffee machine. I'd love to know if anyone has hard tank water.

Rider

on 1304507258:

What... I do not need an expensive RO system and then have to re mineralise and check to confirm how good I am..   ::) ::) ::) ::)

AM, I am just so glad you didn't throw me to the wolves  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

RichardM

Toowoomba water is reported to be around 350ppm (haven't actually tested myself) so I'm doing a huge favour to myself and the town by catching my own. The filter I use to run it through is a Doulton ceramic gravity filter - which only removes organic material, bacteria, and chlorine.  I don't like my water to be stupidly clean.

Rider

on 1304508129:

Brita is better than nothing and even I have used.  The issue is the same as the tank filters and the big systems... Maintenance of the filter and cartridge.   The Brita just has an issue with letting lots of carbon and or other bit excape when new or damaged... Mind you an inline filter in the tank will help to off set this. But as you know, many forget OR do not bother OR even remove teh tank filter and at some stage..... Say no more.

Yes mate and the Brita jug in the fridge is maintained by the lovely Natalie. As you know, grew up in Nigeria as an mk, so she is very vigilant about the filter. Called me blessed  Reminder in my electronic calendar re changing the cartridge in the machine. So, if I get it all wrong, I'll need to kick my own arse  ;D

Dry_bean.

Here's a link to a little light reading written by Jim Schulman http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html Jim says (This is not meant to be the authoritative word on water quality for coffee, I don't have nearly the expertise for that.) perhaps not but he's way ahead of me. From what I've gleaned from a quick scan it seems to me water hardness is a very real issue for high volume situations, I can understand a cafe owner having spent big $$$$$ on a state of the art machine wanting to protect his investment. Home owners are a different kettle of fish, seems the build up of scale generated by the half dozen cups a day most of us make can be controlled easily by regular descaling. The interesting point he makes is that water hardness is only part of the problem, seems alkalinity and temperature are also major factors. I found section 6 on "Estimating Scale Deposition Rates" interesting and informative reading.

hiphipharar

on 1304506499:

Bought the VBM in February and really started getting paranoid about exactly this. Did a stupid amount of internet digging, to-ing and fro-ing and stressing about what was the best solution, as my whole suburb would implode but more importantly my coffee is crap, and finally decided to start basic.

"Welcome to Espresso machine Paranoia Anonymous. Hi I'm Steve and I'm obsessed by the fact that my coffee may not be as good as everyone else says their's is" I imagine I would receive pretty much the same water as you in the Ryde area. When my machine was last descaled there was very little on the mushroom. I use a fairly common brand undersink cartridge filter but the name escapes me atm- no demineraliser. I don't think you need one for domestic use

Lacehim

The last time I tested the water here on the Sunshine coast the result was at the lower end of the scale 0-50 ppm I think it was.  (Thanks E61 for the test strip.  Won it at the Brisbane meet a few months ago) That was straight tap water but I do use water from my fridge which is put through a taste filter.  I can look into my boiler when I fill it and yes there is a slight coating of scale in there but it's not heaps and well I've found during my rebuild that scale isn't as evil as it's made out to be! I've descaled my Lucy twice (6 monthly) and nothing came out scale wise. As mentioned about I think before you spend money on big filters for home use you should test your water.  Then decide on a solution that fits your budget.

shape_shifter

Another water testing result, straight out of the tap. We are near Maitland, about 45 minutes west of Newcastle, NSW. Our results came in a zero, it was definitely the zero colour not in between the zero and 50. Great results for us I think, no scale problems, just copper problems  ;D