Breville's new dual boiler machine BES900

SniffCoffee

Nicole, what about that Carimali Uno for sale on CS?  HX, volumetric and rotary pump (needs to be plumbed in).  Small footprint too, and now only $1000 Sniff

shape_shifter

Sniff I did see that and discussed it with my OH.  He doesn't want something that someone has fiddled with, not knowing what could have been done before the last guy and if the last guy really knew what he was doing and if it needs complete re-engineering or not. He's so over everything (lots of long long days at work at present) he just wants something that will work straight away, or might need a little bit of work like the addition of a PID.

admin

on 1313323891:

 I see no other option but to upgrade  :D Now, which of our sponsors sells a Nikon D400?  Oops OT... and the photos still don't look any better...  

sorry to be a little off-topic [mods feel free to bump me  ] but Brett - I didn't know the D400's been released yet... by the way, love the 50mm F1.4 - got it myself a couple of months ago!! A 8)

Brett H

on 1313463801:

sorry to be a little off-topic [mods feel free to bump me  ] but Brett - I didn't know the D400's been released yet... by the way, love the 50mm F1.4 - got it myself a couple of months ago!! A 8)

Yep... the 400 hasn't been released.  I am just ever hopeful.  I had a play with the remarkable D7000 but didn't like it 'in the hand.'  Like going from a commercial machine to Breville900 it just didn't feel quite as good.  Now how's that for an annalogy that brings us back on topic!!!

admin

on 1313468564:

Like going from a commercial machine to Breville900 it just didn't feel quite as good.  Now how's that for an annalogy that brings us back on topic!!!

whew, perfect mate - saved me the embarrassment of being bumped by my own team! A

UNM

Regarding pressure readings of 12 bar, wouldn't that be a problem that should be resolved under warranty? These machines are reportedly 100% scace calibrated at the factory. If the gauge reads that much higher than expected, it is well outside what I would consider normal tolerances. I don't know what normal accuracy of these gauges is, but +/-30%, makes it as useful as a chocolate teapot (imnsho). If it was me, I'd be talking to whoever sold me the machine to find out where the fault lies. It may be that brew pressure was not correctly set, or has drifted in transit, neither of which inspires confidence. How Breville handle the early problems is something I have been waiting to find out.

DoubleRistretto

on 1310010139:

Guys, Acknowledged you need to add State based Sales Tax, labour rates in the US are substantially lower than here, ie a counter jumper working in the Gap earns about $12/hr, we have compulsory Workers Comp Insurance ~3-4%, compulsory Superannuation 9%, restrictive hiring/firing legislation. In other words the cost of doing business here is much higher than in the US. Cheers, Phil

interesting to see the following about questions being asked of Apple and other companies about the significant price differentials for the same products in Australia vs the US, from SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/aussie-apple-boss-comes-out-of-the-shadows-to-confront-ripoff-claims-20110819-1j17p.html

Muscles

This is off topic from Dual Boiler discussions and perhaps warrants a new thread... It is interesting that an enquiry is happening but why now? Because one pollie likes his technology but doesn't want to pay higher prices? What if he liked coffee too, would we see an enquiry in to the prices of hardware we are interested in? Using the Adobe creative suite 5.5 master collection as an example, I have one of our staff members in our LA branch buying it and emailing me the serial number so we pay $2599US instead of $4299AU... go figure. Shoppers are already showing their outrage at the price gouging by shopping online from overseas and will continue to do so until prices here come in line with the rest of the world. Why can a US citizen get a mini short hopper for a mazzer grinder for less than $20 while here they sell for $50 or $60? Competition and population. We do not have enough compeition here and if we got more competition could our population sustain it?

admin

no problem with this angle of the discussion located here for now; interestingly, I always put the differential down to the higher $US, but that's obviously not a factor now; the other thing I had always assumed was that the US being a much bigger market, it automatically meant that it was just that much more competitive [ie greater competition leading to tighter margins]?

Brett H

on 1313895443:

no problem with this angle of the discussion located here for now; interestingly, I always put the differential down to the higher $US, but that's obviously not a factor now; the other thing I had always assumed was that the US being a much bigger market, it automatically meant that it was just that much more competitive [ie greater competition leading to tighter margins]?

Dont worry about the US, just wait until there's a machine at every Good Guys and Harvey Normans. Then you'll see the prices fall; and, the sweetheart deals struck with the smaller guys to push this thing in the forums will be long forgotten.  A couple of key staffing changes at Breville will be all it takes and the little guys will have to fend for themselves. Finally lower prices for everyone, B900 and Smart grinder packages under a grand and all it will cost is the bottom lines of a couple of guys brave enough to push this thing in their own clientele base.  The genius of Brevilles marketing here is that long after the contracts are over the positive words will remain in Google searches for all to base their research upon... I truly hope I'm wrong!!!

DoubleRistretto

I still haven't struck anyone who's actually bought one of these - wonder how their early sales are tracking? dR

Brett H

on 1314062049:

I still haven't struck anyone who's actually bought one of these - wonder how their early sales are tracking? dR

I thought I had read that all of the first batch were accounted (270 ish).  Very occasionally I check the other forums to see how newbies are tracking but there is very little chatter from the new owners sadly.

shape_shifter

Somehow I think that there were more than that in the first batch, or maybe it was correct and the second batch came quicker... Anyway from what I've seen, besides the original deal with the sponsors on CS and the coffee guy (is that who it was in QLD), everyone else is walking into normal retailers and picking themselves up a fair discount even without the machine being in stock. I don't know that the marketing has worked in the retailers with comments from HN being we're the official suppliers and no one else will have them to other HN stores not even knowing it exists. So much for all the crap with E61, they were doing exactly what the normal retailers have now done anyway!!!

Muscles

I picked up mine today and decided to sample some of the remaining Java blend from MyCuppa in it. The first shot was a bit of a gusher. I'm using the 18g VST basket and it pushed out 60ml in around 22 seconds - went from the cup straight to the sink without a taste. The second shot was better. I adjusted the Smart Grinder to it's finest grind setting and pulled 60ml in 26 seconds, had a taste and thought it wasn't bad - but it still went to the sink. 3rd shot was the money shot for me. 60ml in 28 seconds by adjusting tamp and leaving the grind where it was. Textured some milk and made my Marciato (trademark pending ) by adding 100ml Milk and it was very, very good. 4th was a repeat of the 3rd with milk, just wanted to see if I could get the same results and I did. I am surprised how easy this machine is to use but I'll see how it goes as far as repeatability. I haven't changed any of the default settings yet but do plan to muck around with them soon enough. My first impressions: It's quieter than my EM6910, not by much but it is noticable. The steaming of the milk was soooo easy, anyone could do it I reckon. I've noticed the same as everyone else with the pressure gaugue - I get dead-on 9 bar with the rubber blind but I get a fluctuation from around 9.5 to around 10.5 while extracting but I can't complain about what is in the cup.

shape_shifter

Muscles your fluctuations are much less than the others I've read of, I'd say it may be a user problem rather than a machine problem for the others

Brett H

AM and I set the smart grinder on it's finest and still couldnt choke the BFB. Kinda disappointing because I like a restricted shot and prefer to work bacwards from almost a choke to find the optimum setting. Perhaps Muscles, like the Smart Grinder we used you need a shim to give you that bit of extra head room for really fresh beans or lighter roasted beans.  the grinder was fun to use but the sound of the motor under load as the grind became finer was a bit concerning. If you have any hassles you have the luxury of a good warranty to fall back on so enjoy!

Muscles

Hmmm, my smart grinder has already been shimmed (well, I added the smallest of the pack). That noise you mention - maybe I have mistaken that for metal on metal with the burrs??? It does also sound like what could be motor strain but I haven't heard metal on metal in a grinder to compare. I'd look for the rest of the shims and add another but I'll have the SJ soon enough and will then move the smart grinder on. As for the Breville and warranty, yes the 2 years is reassuring.

Muscles

AM, I ran the tests you requested and the results are as follows: SB = 60ml/25sec @8.7bar BDB = 60ml/22sec @8.2bar (Bar readings approx as there are obviously no decimal markings on the gague) Also I put the rubber blind back in the BDB SF basket but this time pushed it firmly in and made a very tight seal, the result was a reading of approx 11.8bar, I mustn't have had as adequate a seal the first time I checked or the basket was wet when I put it in.

Muscles

All about the numbers alright! So I think you are saying that mine has been set properly to 9bar hence the 8.7 reading with single floor (you mentioned you have tested but not what exactly you were testing for) Makes me happy to hear that IF I've understood it correctly. I have faith in Breville as a brand but this is a brand new product. So it's funny how there are a LOT of vocal others who have experienced similar. Is it a feature rather than a floor? Or is it a batch of gaugues? Or did Breville only test with DF baskets? Or do they know how to work the machine and we don't? I don't see how it's a user issue as Dennis is hinting to elsewhere but perhaps he is right. BUT, if it is user error why would Phil be adjusting machines? And is he adjusting the Gaugue or the OPV - I must have missed it if it was mentioned. I guess only time will tell.

UNM

Just to confirm my  understanding, or possibly display my ignorance... Supposing my pump was capable of delivering one litre a minute at nine bar, the operation of the OPV would be far more critical, would it not? I assume one reason OPV's are less of an issue with small vibe pumps is the flow rate reduces under pressure. Took a look at that PDF on OPVs, none of them look like the one in my gaggia, which seems quite well designed, albeit small. Same basic operation though.

Muscles

I poured two doubles this morning and tasted both. First was good, second was better The first pour =60ml/28sec but I didn't even look at the gague and for the second pour =60ml/31sec @9.5-9.8 slow dancing BTW - To me it's what's in the cup that counts and while I am posting measurements, timings and gague readings I am watching the pour and making my adjustments based on the pour until I get this grinder dialled in.

Muscles

on 1314336542:

Which says that you managing the flow and pressure via the dose and grind.. 

Isn't that what we all do regardless of which machine we use?

shape_shifter

on 1314337672:

Isn't that what we all do regardless of which machine we use?

LMAO it is if you have any idea about what you are doing. I love watching newbies with machines, either they get it eventually or not at all and that is where you see so many on the used market and you can bet those people either buy an automatic or go back to what they had !!!

Brett H

on 1314338189:

LMAO it is if you have any idea about what you are doing. I love watching newbies with machines, either they get it eventually or not at all and that is where you see so many on the used market and you can bet those people either buy an automatic or go back to what they had !!!

Me too! It's what I miss most about the other forum. None of them here I'm afraid. I think Muscles that you nailed it when you said "it's what's in the cup that matters." Thanks though for sharing your journey. I know I'm not alone when I say I read your posts with great interest and I really appreciate AM's OPV thread (even though I'll never understand it...)!  ;D

shape_shifter

AM even the front cover of the Sunbeam instruction booklet says 'commercial design'. Inside 'just like a commercial machine, that would be used on a commercial'. I never once took the word 'commercial' into my decision.  I guess in my reading of the information, I took the word commercial to mean about the fact that commercial machines can do shot and steam at the same time, the portafilter is the same size as commercial machines...NOT that it was or could perform like a commercial machine. To me either Breville has egg on it's face OR it's a harder machine to user for the average consumer than what they thought. As someone has said to me in my adventures with the EM6910, I've been able to get the hang of things fairly quickly...I'm producing some fantastic shots in a quicker time than what I thought I would be and seriously with the help of my manual grinder, maybe it's the Smart Grinders fault LOL

Koffee_Kosmo

I wont make assumptions on the process Breville use, just highlighting some ways that can be adopted I have an open thought or thinking aloud since we are talking OPV at the moment In the Breville factory what is the sequence or routine for setting the OPV To my knowledge 1) An adjustable OPV can actually be set dry, based on the design specs This manual setting will be close but not exact  e.g. set adjustment screw 5 full rotations from thread contact  2) The OPV can also be set with a wet run by the manufacturer of the OPV "off machine" using the specified pump pressure of the machine it will be fitted to On another note, the above 2 processes apply to many other manufactured parts including boilers, electrical circuits ect Parts are tested to work withing a specified range " off machine" and then used for final assembly knowing they passed the required rating, calibration or general operating test I really would like to know? Does the Breville assembly factory do a full wet run of the the fully assembled machine and test all functions, and adjust where required on the production line I ask this question because this process can take precious minutes per machine on a production line after final assembly? All machines need to be primed with water and plugged in How many power points are there? How many machines are tested per batch And if a full wet test is conducted I hope that all water is flushed or treated from the boilers before export for health & safety reasons I am just imagining how water filled boilers would fare after some months of display on department store shelves? KK

mycuppa

on 1314336294:

I poured two doubles this morning and tasted both. First was good, second was better The first pour =60ml/28sec but I didn't even look at the gague and for the second pour =60ml/31sec @9.5-9.8 slow dancing BTW - To me it's what's in the cup that counts and while I am posting measurements, timings and gague readings I am watching the pour and making my adjustments based on the pour until I get this grinder dialled in.

For 15 years I've struggled to understand why the 2nd shot is always better. Even if I run the grinder for a few doses, tipping straight into the knock tube and if I run heaps of water through the machine to pre-heat......... 2nd shot is always better. Marc, the Java, like most wet-hulled Sumatran's require a very fine grind to extract the best from the bean. Some grinders I've used at the low-end struggle to get the particle size right for a good Sumatran.

Muscles

http://youtu.be/uwFGkhEGv1c example pour, far from perfect and I wouldn't make it as a camera man...

shape_shifter

Yah vids from others :D It looks great at the start and during

Muscles

Here's my last using a different cam - bad move... about to shoot another now, I am definitely not sleeping tonight