VST filter baskets.

Seeya Latte

Hi WotB thanks for responding so quickly, your first hand experience is appreciated. Seeya

Gra

on 1308884192:

Well my VST basket arrived this morning just in time for morning coffee :-* The results "fantastic" I set about doing my first shot with every thing as is for my 12g basket that I use for single shots and pulled a 30ml 19sec for my first attempt.. In the cup where it counts I was amazed at how creamy the full it felt in the mouth I am not very good at explaining different tastes but all I can say this basket is worth every penny My method for dosing is to fill to brim then one bench tap top up and lightly chop with a splayed level light tamp tap full tamp twist for polish this mornings cup was PNG Waghi AA In too words Bloody beautiful :P :P Cheers Gra..   

After reading about different  dosing and tamping methods with the VTS basket it appears that to get the best results is to level dose with out mounding the center so as to get a even tamp over the hole face of the basket. My method of dosing as above has been working for me but yesterday I started using the nutating action that gives a very even tamp and I have noticed that my shots have improved some with much more smoothness and sweeter cup..Worth a try.. Cheers Gra' 

gregpullman

I have always dosed flat. If the bottom of the basket is roughly flat, the showerscreen is roughly flat, the tamper is roughly flat, and you want the water to flow evenly through the puck, then surely that puck should be even in density from edge to edge? I can't see how piling the coffee up like a mountain in the middle of the basket and then tamping it such that the centre has perhaps double the particle density than the edges is ever going to produce anything other than peripheral channelling. I never tried it, I just never even considered such a technique as it didn't make logical sense. But apparently lots of people have used this technique? Can someone enlighten me as to the rationale behind it? Greg

Dry_bean.

on 1311552559:

I have always dosed flat. If the bottom of the basket is roughly flat, the showerscreen is roughly flat, the tamper is roughly flat, and you want the water to flow evenly through the puck, then surely you would want an even thickness and density of coffee from edge to edge? I can't see how piling the coffee up like a mountain in the middle of the basket and then tamping it such that the centre has perhaps double the particle density than the edges is ever going to yield an even water flow. I never tried it, I just never even considered such a technique as it didn't make logical sense. But apparently lots of people have used this technique? Can someone enlighten me as to the rationale behind it? Greg

Rightly or wrongly I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat Greg. I have always considered tamping to be a bit of a dark art, shrouded in mystery to some and presenting no problem at all to others. I fully agree with you re mounding, water will always take the path of least resistance, so mounding and tamping must result in a denser centre with the possibility of channelling around the edges as well as an under extracted centre.

beanflying

Just a few pics of my new 18 and 22g VST's and my 2 and 3 cup Synessos. I will get to crunching some shots through them over the next couple of days. With the depth of them very similar to the Synessos. The 22g will fit either my standard or naked handle.

Gra

Look forward to you findings, Having both types of baskets to compare should be very interesting. 8) Cheers Gra.

beanflying

Not sure if it is the ridged baskets but they sit higher in the group by a whisker over the ridgeless Synesso ones. Not a major problem but the handle locks in 15 degrees less. Shot 1 and 2 sink shots no where near fine enough grind. Shot 3 back within range and looked ok from the bottom. Tastebuds are not at there best today due to a 2am finish and one to many Beers but it tasted pretty decent. To try and do some back to back testing I think I will set up my 2 DRM grinders one for VST and the other for the Synessos as the change in grind needed it going to be to hard to manage.

WotB

You'll find that the VST baskets have a definite dose tolerance of around +/- 1g.  Try weighing your normal dosing technique to see around where you're at.

Gra

The first shot that I pulled with VST basket was as good as the standard 12g that I was setup to at the time. Then with a little finer grind then dosing and tamping as I always have done it just got  better and I have not taken the basket out since. :P Gra..

beanflying

A little VST nakedness. Very much a work in progress.  

askthecoffeeguy

Apparently espressoparts has a similar product - anyone tried it?

gregpullman

The only ones I could see that could potentially fit that bill is their 'HQ' range e.g. http://www.espressoparts.com/EPW10813. If they're what you mean, no I've not tried them but I can offer a few observations. Reading about the development of the VST baskets, it seems early on they realised the flaws that existed in common baskets designs, so started from the ground up to build a set of baskets that eliminated those flaws. Hole pattern / size / shape is a big part of VST's focus but there are other factors like vertical walls and holes running right to the edge of the basket to ensure a consistent water flow through the basket, angle of curves in the basket, post-production measurement, consistency from unit to unit etc, all of which make it a rather different design to most others out there. This is significant because EPNW say their units are based on pre-existing designs, and they've used this laser process to tidy up the holes. This is evident because the three different sizes they offer are all different shapes, and two are ridgeless while the other is ridged. They're obviously not supposed to be a comparable set like VST's, but tizzied up versions of designs they already offer. The EPNW unit in the link also tapers in quite markedly and there's a fairly wide unpunched margin around the flat part of the basket before the hole pattern starts. Both of these go against the 'consistent water flow' mantra built into the design of the VST's. So even if the holes are improved, the shape of the basket itself is still compromised which doesn't sound a great starting point to any new product. It's impossible to know quality of materials from photos, but I can compare VSTs to Synesso baskets. My ridgeless Synesso double weighs 28.4g; the 18g VST (which is the closest in depth) weighs 33.1g. Even the much-shallower 15g VST is more, at 32.2g (FWIW the 22g VST is a whopping 36.6g). I only mention that because the EPNW units are half the price of the Synessos and 1/4 of the VSTs, so I have to wonder about the likely quality of materials and build of the EPNW baskets... Car buffs will know a big exhaust can give a performance improvement over a factory system but doesn't turn the car into a Porsche (unless it's one already! ). While I'll reserve my judgement until someone does a taste / quality test, my guess is the EPNW may offer an improvement over regular baskets, but I doubt they're in the same camp as the VSTs in terms of quality, consistency and longevity. Greg P.S. For disclosure purposes I do sell VST baskets, but anyone could draw the same observations from the information currently in the public domain.

beanflying

on 1312096460:

Apparently espressoparts has a similar product - anyone tried it?

I do know Coffeehorse (John) has a set coming or arrived and he also has some VST's so we should get a chance to hear about how they compare. Sipping on a decadent VST pour 26.4g in a 22g basket (weight 37.06g btw). 8 second preinfusion and a 31 second pour. I think I still need to go a fraction finer and drop the dose a touch as it was right on the screen I think. Result Tasty and full of Berries

Seeya Latte

on 1311470490:

If you're using a Mininova, it will not fit without a naked PF.  I found that out already.

Looks like I'll be buying a bottomless if I want to do anything other than just look at my new 18gm VST ! Thanks for trying WotB... for some reason it only dawned on me what you were saying until after I placed the order...gotta laugh ;D Seeya

gregpullman

If you look back at WotB's post I think his comment "If you're using a Mininova, it will not fit without a naked PF.  I found that out already." was in reference to the 22g. The VST18's are a smidgen shallower than ridgeless Synesso's and we hardly ever ran into Synessos not fitting. Have you actually tried the 18g in your Mininova PF? Greg

borat123

here's some naked shots tonight of Harrar double sort from a synesso basket....   Maybe it would be better with a vst  

Koffee_Kosmo

MMMM naked coffee pour Now that's eye candy I still haven't decided as yet I cant complain about my coffee pours and flavour of my coffee On one hand I keep thinking "If it aint broken why fix it" On the other hand I am thinking "Will curiosity make it better" KK

Seeya Latte

on 1312271824:

If you look back at WotB's post I think his comment "If you're using a Mininova, it will not fit without a naked PF.  I found that out already." was in reference to the 22g. The VST18's are a smidgen shallower than ridgeless Synesso's and we hardly ever ran into Synessos not fitting. Have you actually tried the 18g in your Mininova PF? Greg

Hi Greg, no luck. The inside of the PF just tapers in a little towards the bottom, enough to not make the 18 sit properly (VST sits up outside the PF by about 2 mm). I even took out the PF clip/spring thinking it may be the cause of the impedance, still doesn

beanflying

Ran the 18g baskets this morning for a couple of shots. Nice looking pours but a slight edge channelling distribution error showed up on top of the puck on one of them. Starting to get the impression that while tougher to use than the Synesso's more forgiving nature their is potential shot quality improvements to be had from them. Back to back matched grinder testing over the next few days but still a work in progress.

askthecoffeeguy

maybe I need to order some and see what the fuss is all about!

borat123

tonight's coffee porn effort....   Same as last night:  synesso basket & harrar double sort. At the start before it all twisted together like a tornado forming: And a few seconds later:

Brett H

Wonderful Borat... Just wonderful

Brett H

Okay.... where can I get an 18gr basket in Briz?  I want to take my portafilter in to check that it's all hunky-dory!

borat123

on 1312377499:

Looks like striped candy... So, the real question; what was it like ? A sink shot or Not   

Yes, I sunk it straight into my mouth  :D I wish I could say it was nectar from heaven, a miraculous GOD SHOT.....    but actually it was just a 'nice' shot, a little bit of fruit, but taste was not quite as spectacular as it looked. With the halogen TO, I keep getting suckered into roasts a little darker than what I'm aiming for.  Just call me a slow learner 

beanflying

Back on the 22g baskets today trying to find a grind and weight dose that works repeatedly  and tastes great. 25g is as low a dose as I have been able to get a decent shot (time, look and taste) out of my machine and even that still get me a sloppy puck as the space between the puck and shower screen is getting up there. A finer grind will just make the puck lower and increase the problems. Bottom line for me is these baskets on my machine need around a 25g dose. Time to buy a set of Scottie Callaghans dosing tools http://www.scottiecallaghan.com/#!__dosing-tools-explained to work on the niggly distribution issues. Just made a crude slightly curved sweeping tool, edge channelling nearly gone and able to drop the dose a little more.

beanflying

Side issue anyone tried or investigated the use of a convex Tamper base with these?

Jetblack Espresso

We've tried flat and convex. For E61 group heads we get better extractions with convex tampers, charlie

beanflying

Curses 6 tampers and all of them flat (most the wrong size anyway). I am hoping to pick up a small set of Dosing tools in Melbourne tomorrow to play with and see how they go combined with a flat tamp for a start. Life is so much simpler with 55mm and smaller standard styled baskets. 

Brett H

Re: VST filter baskets.

gregpullman

Wow I'm tired! Tired because I spent until the wee hours of the morning on Skype with Vince from VST. I would have to say it was a most enlightening conversation even at that hour of night! He spent quite some time going over the science of what's going on during an extraction. I have a much better understanding now of why coffee tastes bitter when it's overextracted, or sour when it's underextracted, how the pH changes during the extraction process and how predictably pleasant the taste can be if the percentage of extraction yield and total dissolved solids is right. I.e. if you measure a sample in a refractometer and it's in the right range you know it'll taste sweet. Of course your tastebuds can tell you that but if the taste is out then the refractometer can tell you what went wrong in the shot, and therefore the precise direction in which you need to go to sort it out. Guesswork adios! This all led into how important a role the filter baskets play in that process. In a previous position the coffee company Vince worked for lost a client whose coffee had suddenly gone sour. The coffee tasted fine on their machine but sour on the client's. They changed water, water filtration, grinder burrs, coffee batch, temperature you name it but the problem persisted so the client walked. Turned out the client had changed their baskets and sure enough when these baskets were tried in a different machine the sourness went with the baskets, and refractometer readings from these baskets came back off the scale no matter what was done with grind, dose, tamp etc! Vince's previous work was in forensic imaging, so it was easy to scan the hole pattern of the basket. It quickly became obvious what the problem was. Apart from varying dramatically in size, some holes were round, some star shaped, some jagged, some completely blocked! This fundamentally affected the way the coffee was extracted which is why it was always tasting sour! This is how the patended scanning process of the basket VST use came about in the first place, and explained why some baskets will yield consistently over or underextracted results, despite the user's efforts (and why people sometimes note an improvement "simply by changing my basket"). I already knew the basket design manufacturing process of the VST unit is critical, and so many factors in the VST baskets (shape, curve angles, material thickness, internal diameter, hole pattern, hole size, hole size consistency etc etc etc) are finely tuned to yield a 'sweet spot' extraction if dosed correctly. But equally important is the imaging system to ensure the baskets are up to spec; if any of those are out the formula doesn't work and the basket won't perform consistently from basket to basket or with different brew parameters. This made me realise that while I or anyone else could (potentially) replicate the design of the VST basket if we could be bothered, without the imaging system to make sure it's all up to scratch there's no way of checking whether the basket will actually perform the way you want it to, both in that basket itself and with any other baskets from the same manufacturer (and that imaging system is patented and used only by VST ). It also reinforced what I said in my previous post that, even if someone was able to get the holes under control, if the shape of the basket is fundamentally compromised then extractions ARE going to suffer, if not all the time then certainly when you change brew parameters. Ultimately like always, let your taste buds be the guide, but realise there's serious work and a pile of science behind these beasts rather than just another basket, plus big names who have used them that are backing their performance. I feel more than ever the advice given to Mark Prince, that if they're not working the way you think they should, the problem's more than likely to be on the user side of the portafilter! Now for some sleep...!