Reviewing the 'Coffee' review sites.

beanflying

Talking about Melbourne in particular here as it is the coffee I know best in Australia but it seems Sydney has similar issues and it is getting to Brisbane as of recent times.

I am getting so over rubbish coffee reviews written by journalists or pseudo journalists that show a lack of knowledge of coffee for a start and or a lack knowing who is actually doing it well (writing from an office using the web as their research tool). Partially following on from the Recent Age Good Cafe Guide (which focused on coffee by there own guidelines).

This has been spoken about a little here on Mark Dundons (7 Seeds) blog in an article on Reviewing the Reviewer. http://triclops3.wordpress.com/2010/09/17/review-the-reviewer/

I have been having a read through Urbanspoon http://www.urbanspoon.com and it is so full of downright nasty one hit reviews of some of the upper end coffee places in Melbourne who then have ZERO opportunity to comment back or have them taken down as to make this site a bad joke.

This Article from a US Tourist/writer claiming to have the "Best 10 Cafes in Melbourne" http://blog.mrandmrssmith.com/2011/06/best-cafes-in-melbourne-superior-coffee-beans-top-10-coffee-spots/ While the content is fine professing to give a "top 10' is ridiculous unless they had been to 50+ places to try and narrow it down. Kind of like World Series XYZ but only US teams allowed sort of thing.

Bean Hunter while it has some short comings in the ratings system is run by enthusiasts and is been constantly tweaked and upgraded. Trying to use it to find the very best places doesn't work to well as places that get 10 of their mates/regulars to give them a 9 or 10 rating see them above better places with more realistic numbers from a larger number of reviews.

MCR not going into a lot of detail here but based on some of the more recent content/ratings and some of what I have heard from the industry is think of Alan Jones and John Laws and 2UE and you will get the idea. Was good but hardly worth reading anymore.

Sites worth a Read on Melbourne Coffee.
http://happytoserveyou.com.au/ A good selection of the usual suspects and a few more.
http://espressomelbourne.com/ Good variety of locations and worth a read.
http://backseatbaristas.wordpress.com/ Probably the best independent Melbourne Review site.

And then we come to Crema Magazines own Best Cafes site http://www.bestcafes.com.au/ It really needs more input from us the coffee lovers and consumers of Australia. I am sure the Crema Mag team would dearly love to have some good content and quality reviews on the better Australian Coffee Venues you have been to recently to put up and promote.

Interested in what others feel on how a ratings site may be improved or even if you think they are worth reading or is it just best to read them all with a big spoon of salt?

mycuppa

Could not agree with your more Timbo. Final straw for me arrived when an supposedly respected/regarded site published a review for a cafe stating that the coffee beans were fresh roasted on-site, when it was well-known by the author of the article that this was not a true statement. The web is full of artificial ramping and toxic bloggers but the really disappointing aspect is that 80% of the people reading these articles can't decipher the fact from the fiction.

Koffee_Kosmo

Freedom of the press goes hand in hand with the saying " The pen is mightier than the sword " That has been refined since that statement was coined Soon it became known as "Propaganda" A few decades later it has changed clothes and is now known as "Spin" As to forum members participating in the Crema Magazine I suggest 2 or so magazine pages be dedicated to interviews of forum members and be presented as a personal journal of the coffee journey KK

beanflying

Hi KK and the rest, spun off the chat about the Magazine content into it's own thread here http://www.bestcafes.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1726.0 Part of the problem with mainstream media is they also seem to look for the easy way out. There was an article late last year in which 3 out of 4 outlets of this coffee business received over 1/2 a page in a newspaper as being the best coffee in Melbourne. You would have to wonder who actually wrote the copy or was it a rehash of a press release or blog entry from that business. Journalistic integrity around zero. I have seen it done at a local level even here write 200 words and email with a picture attached and whamo instant and free advert for no $$.

blanyon

Glad to see that others share my opinions on "coffee" review sites, or sites that allow customers to rate their coffee. The suffer from a lack of accountability so over time trust is lost from the consumers  and owners of the businesses and the sites then just direct the lazy. There was a site womf, who was based on locals recommending businesses and it fell down around here because the business owners were recommending themselves to lift their profile. It is a difficult one that crema does a fantastic job at remaining independent, when I am traveling it is a fantastic resource. We do need to support it more through reviews though. Brett

Muscles

on 1309608296:

Accepting numbers or ratings of any sort from the General public is always a dodgy one as one persons 7 is another's 9 etc. So unless you have lots of ratings the numbers are always skewed toward those with only mates ratings. My thoughts are maybe better off leaving them off entirely and or weighting them against an authoritative sourced rating (someone who actually knows something about coffee  ::) )

Agreed, it only takes a few customers throwing mud for it to begin to stick. As humans, we tell nearly everyone we know about bad experiences but tell very few about our good ones....

hazchem

on 1309608296:

Mahalia Coffee in Robe or The Bean Barn in Ballarat are two places that I know that beat out some of the Melbourne glitterati in last years Golden Bean Awards (not forgetting mycuppa either as a roaster)

did they really beat them though, or did the "glitterati" just not enter? Golden Bean is an interesting competition and I have no idea how rigorous the judging is. Given that its judged by the very people who've entered the competition ... Back on topic, review sites & blogs are generally not worth the bandwidth they occupy. Both mainstream media and online resources have desperately needed to be reviewed themselves (Review the reviewer) for some time now but I'm not holding my breath. As has already been mentioned, perhaps we, the members of this forum need to start providing as much review content as possible for bestcafes.com.au & perhaps even consider cross-posting that content to places like urbanspoon & eatability.

RichardM

on 1309640753:

As has already been mentioned, perhaps we, the members of this forum need to start providing as much review content as possible for bestcafes.com.au & perhaps even consider cross-posting that content to places like urbanspoon & eatability.

What does it take to get a cafe's details on bestcafes though??? It's kind of useless to me having only three places to review near me, only one of which does half decent coffee: http://www.bestcafes.com.au/review/search.php?searchterm=toowoomba&x=0&y=0 vs http://www.yellowpages.com.au/search/listings?clue=cafe&locationClue=toowoomba&x=0&y=0 So it seems I have a whopping 3 out of 103 cafes listed in my area. Additionally, when you go to review a cafe, it asks for email address and full name, but doesn't state whether it will be publicly viewable or not. I'm assuming not, but that would be a fear a lot of people have. I'm all for accountability, but in places like where I am, everyone knows everyone, and me writing my full name and then commenting negatively about a cafe would definitely get back to me.

beanflying

on 1309640753:

did they really beat them though, or did the "glitterati" just not enter?

Without getting to OT some of them did enter and some of the 'best' didn't.

on 1309644887:

What does it take to get a cafe's details on bestcafes though??? It's kind of useless to me having only three places to review near me, only one of which does half decent coffee:

But at least those 3 by your repeat visits you can write a review with some authority on them. Last trip to Melbourne if a review was done on a one visit basis to one of the top10 they would have got a slamming for the coffees presented. As I have been there 4 or 5 times over the last year a a more balanced review would have been offered. So review away I reckon. Tough as it might be you need to be a little impartial of the people you may know well but fair critique of the coffee should be taken onboard. In smaller communities that is harder to do for sure without being punched in the nose. In this town the busiest 'Cafe' serves some of the most inconsistent coffee around but to say it with my name attached would get me all sorts of trouble  ::)

admin

on 1309508781:

Talking about Melbourne in particular here as it is the coffee I know best in Australia but it seems Sydney has similar issues and it is getting to Brisbane as of recent times. I am getting so over rubbish coffee reviews written by journalists or pseudo journalists that show a lack of knowledge of coffee for a start and or a lack knowing who is actually doing it well (writing from an office using the web as their research tool). Partially following on from the Recent Age Good Cafe Guide (which focused on coffee by there own guidelines). This has been spoken about a little here on Mark Dundons (7 Seeds) blog in an article on Reviewing the Reviewer. http://triclops3.wordpress.com/2010/09/17/review-the-reviewer/

wow, take a day off & look what happens!! will try and answer as many of these as possible now, but I believe the one above is extra important & will require a very 'considered' response; suffice it to say, agree with the sentiment, both of Bf's comments & Mark D's 'reviewing the reviewer' blog; more on this later.... A

admin

on 1309518823:

Freedom of the press goes hand in hand with the saying " The pen is mightier than the sword " That has been refined since that statement was coined Soon it became known as "Propaganda" A few decades later it has changed clothes and is now known as "Spin" As to forum members participating in the Crema Magazine I suggest 2 or so magazine pages be dedicated to interviews of forum members and be presented as a personal journal of the coffee journey KK

good idea KK, and we're always open to thoughts/suggestions - obviously for forum, but also for the mag.... looks like the 'guts' of this one are in the bit that Bf has spun off, so will give a full answer there.... ie under the Crema magazine content ideas thread [on the Crema Magazine Board] below. A

admin

on 1309644887:

What does it take to get a cafe's details on bestcafes though??? It's kind of useless to me having only three places to review near me, only one of which does half decent coffee:

so have you actually tried to load a cafe recommendation? - if you're a consumer you give cafe name, address & your rating & if you're the cafe owner you have the option to add more info; most people tell us it's pretty simple when they take the trouble to do so - about 3 simple steps...

on 1309644887:

Additionally, when you go to review a cafe, it asks for email address and full name, but doesn't state whether it will be publicly viewable or not. I'm assuming not, but that would be a fear a lot of people have. I'm all for accountability, but in places like where I am, everyone knows everyone, and me writing my full name and then commenting negatively about a cafe would definitely get back to me.

No, doesn't show personal details

on 1309644887:

So it seems I have a whopping 3 out of 103 cafes listed in my area

sheesh Richard - the only response I can think of, is why don't you load the other 100, instead of moaning about it??? A

RichardM

on 1309681108:

so have you actually tried to load a cafe recommendation? - most people tell us it's pretty simple when they take the trouble to do so - about 3 simple steps... No, doesn't show personal details sheesh Richard - the only response I can think of, is why don't you load the other 100??

The comment of showing personal details was merely a suggestion of putting a comment in to say "Personal details will not be shown" just to allay any concerns - I figured they wouldn't be shown, but it's not guaranteed. If I had the concern, I'm 100% certain that some others would too. Only after reading your post did I work out the logic issue. I have been simply searching for my town name, thinking "I'll review any I can", to only find 3. On the search page with those results, there is no link to say whether it isn't there. I only saw the "For Cafe Owners...List your cafe for free", and assumed owners had to list it themselves before they could be reviewed. Now I do it the other way, and search for the cafe, then can see that I can click the "suggest" bit. So out of all this, I have two suggestions: 1) On the search page, if some results are found, still have the "not listed, suggest a cafe" link (which currently only shows up if no results are found) 2) Add some clarification when you go to comment to say that no personal details will be shown on the reviews. I have just written my first review of a local I went to over the weekend.

admin

Great, thanks Richard - only 99 more to go!  ;D On a more serious note, in line with some of the suggestions above, have some ideas into ways to better represent Forum members' cafe reviews on the bestcafes site (anonomously if requested)... more on this shortly!!

RichardM

Ok, new (minor) gripe now that my first review is up. It doesn't respect formatting, so all my paragraphs have morphed into one

mycuppa

on 1309640753:

did they really beat them though, or did the "glitterati" just not enter? Golden Bean is an interesting competition and I have no idea how rigorous the judging is. Given that its judged by the very people who've entered the competition ... Back on topic, review sites & blogs are generally not worth the bandwidth they occupy. Both mainstream media and online resources have desperately needed to be reviewed themselves (Review the reviewer) for some time now but I'm not holding my breath. As has already been mentioned, perhaps we, the members of this forum need to start providing as much review content as possible for bestcafes.com.au & perhaps even consider cross-posting that content to places like urbanspoon & eatability.

When over 300 coffee companies submit more than 1000 entries to the Golden Bean, you know the awards are worth winning. Specialty coffee heavyweights like DiBella, Veneziano, etc. all invest significant resources to win medals. The list of entrants is kept confidential for obvious reasons as one company can market against another they are "better" - only the top 20 in each category are published. Calibration and control of judging is first-rate - up there with international standards. All samples are coded, so nobody can determine the brand. Some of the judges are people with the most experienced palates in the country. There are many reasons why a company may not enter a competition. You could argue that some of those choosing not to enter Golden Bean could be afraid their performance/results may not live up to their over-hyped image. Not competing keeps them away from direct comparisons............. for the time-being. A similar roasting competition concept is being hastily put together for the Royal Melbourne Fine Foods in July. Email notifications received today and closing in 11 days time.......mmmm, very short notice indeed !

admin

Hi guys

beanflying

Groan..... http://coffeearmy.tumblr.com/post/8075805696 Its a top 20 as rewarded by the Ages cheap method (The "Coffee Army" http://coffeearmy.tumblr.com/page/5 ) of reviewing coffee around Melbourne. Get a group of people together give them some brief instruction and send them out into the world to do the legwork for you. I seem to detect a leaning toward the cool hipster hangouts and the new kids in the street rather than necessarily the Top 20 coffee places in Melbourne  ::)