Potential Electrical Safety with Alex Duetto II (others may be affected)

System

ADVISE POST.

Alex Duetto II (others may be affected):

If currently fitted with a 10A plug  and can be "USER" configured to draw more than the attached lead and or plug is rated at;  Then that is a breach of electrical safety in every state of Australia AND NZ  etc..

In fact, if available or being sold  in Qld and or some other states  this would deamed by the Electrical Commission and or OWHS for some states  as a  "Notifiable DANGEROUS EVENT".

It is a legal requirement to report to the Electrical commission any event that could cause serious harm to person OR property.

Further more; for any one with a knowledge of  (who has a licence) can also viewed as breaching their licence requirements and duty of care, if they do not report.

It is also not up to the agent, seller, manufacturer or importer to make a call that the unit is safe or has been modified to correct any issues; That call is and can only be made by an authorised officer from the relevant board.

A pid might be reprogrammed BUT if a user can access and re configure via the user keys; that that is NOT good enough to ensure the safety of persons and or property.

If a user was to physically replace with a non standard PID and or gain access to the internals and burn / flash different a different code.  Then that user has bypassed all the usual safety features; breached the national electrical act and the agent, seller, manufacturer or importer should not be held accountable.

But if a user key press can be used to access the pid configuration and to re configure, then a re configure by the agent, seller, manufacturer or importer is not good enough.  AND in particular, when the unit is shipped with a 10A plug.

To ensure your insurance and property is safe; contact the seller if possible and gain further advice as to any recall / repairs to be carried out. To have the risk managed / corrected in accordance with the regs of the sate; in which the machine is being used.

The simple fix in ALL cases is to have an electrician come on site and fit a 15A plug and fit a 15A outlet.

This is not a bad idear any way, as then when you go to fit your next upgrade you will have an approved 15A socket ready to go  ;D

Thus a silver lining.. A quality approach, means every event is an opportunity for improvement and enhancements.

Anger..  On now I have to fill in forms and present my self to the Qld Electrical Authority on Monday to advise of said concerns re possible units in Qld.

PS. I hate forms  :o

Gra

So if you have had 15amp power to your machine and a 15amp pug fitted are you saying that the original lead on the machine need to be replaced as well??? ??? Gra..

RichardM

I haven't seen one of these machines, but I assume the cable is 15A, and the plug is 10A, thus it would just be a case of changing the plug and wall socket to 15A. If the cable on the machine was 10A, that would be a whole other problem.

Gra

I Have a 15amp point for my machine and have had the plug changed to 15mp it would be strange if the lead was under rated if the machine can be switch from 10-15amp the thing is how do I no ?.. I have 15amp caravan lead that I use off a 15 amp point in the garage for charging the battery that  look like 10amp in appearance.. Gra..

mycuppa

From my electrical engineering days..... The trend on all types of appliances over the last 5+ years has been thinner and thinner cables as the price of copper has shot up over 500+ - 1000%. Most 10A appliances, and I'm making a general statement here, not necessarily relating to the ADII would have 3-core flex leads that are very dangerous to run 15A through. I was shocked to see a toaster the other day with what was something like 0.5mm2 cores. A short on the toaster and the lead is probably going to melt/open circuit before the fuse/CB blows/trips. 15A through even most recently purchased 10A extension leads makes them very warm (yes, I've had to do a dodgy at an event once with my coffee cart that I was not proud of). Houses are wired with 2.5mm2 TPS cable to all the power points and generally 1mm2 or 1.5mm2 for the lighting circuits. These 2.5mm2 power circuits are designed to withstand considerable loading for short periods assuming protection by the correct fuse/CB. Gra, your 25A supply will have something like 4mm2 feeding it. Generally, coffee machines from Europe will have a very high quality 1.0mm2, 1.5mm2 3-core flex cables from the factory, with very good quality heavy duty sheathing. As to whether the Australian importers remove these cables for the ADII or just connect a plug is not clear. Gra, what I suggest you do is try to arrange a comment from your seller of the machine as to whether the flex was factory provided or replaced, or you can have an electrician remove the plug and inspect the dimension of the cores. When I was doing my apprenticeship/trainee slave duties, we had to make up a lot of leads and plugs for all sorts of various equipment and after about 12 months, you get to know the various core sizes just by looking at them for a few seconds and I'd say most Sparky's can tell in a whisker what the size of the core is once they get a look at the copper ends.

beanflying

Rather than speculate here best bet is if you have one to go back to your retailer you got it from. There is a long and involved process into getting items complacenced in Australia and due to the ability of this particular machine to be changed by the user it means it can be made non compliment by the user as sold.

on 1311930934:

So if you have had 25amp power to your machine and a 15amp pug fitted are you saying that the original lead on the machine need to be replaced as well??? ??? Gra..

This way around for electrical items is fine Gra so long as the plugs and cables used match up  

on 1311931037:

I haven't seen one of these machines, but I assume the cable is 15A, and the plug is 10A, thus it would just be a case of changing the plug and wall socket to 15A. If the cable on the machine was 10A, that would be a whole other problem.

Providing the appliance cable is rated to 15A for a start (unconfirmed if it is or isn't in this case) and you fit a 15A plug and have an "approved" 15A circuit then your covered electrically BUT. The Izzo as I understand it wasn't complianced in this configuration. This brings into play some of what AM was talking about above. Take it for a warning and check with your retailer if you have one of these.

Gra

Thanks for that I will get it checked out just to be on the safe side Gra.

RichardM

One thing I really don't understand with manufacturers is why they don't just use IEC cables as connectors. I'm assuming it's to ensure no water gets in the socket, but still....it would make things a lot easier. You can even get 15A IEC's, and they could put both connectors on, and switch the PID configuration depending on which one was plugged in if they really wanted to.

RichardM

on 1311933507:

If it is a clean skin...  Then it MUST BE CHANGED.

This is something that is often overlooked. We got randomly audited at the computer store I was managing a few years back - they wanted to check every cable that we were selling for the markings. We were all clear, but there are a lot of dodgy cables around. Once again, this is why I don't understand why IEC cables aren't used.

Cuppacoffee

Let me preface this by saying that I am very conscious of the need for safety.  I'm not an electrician. Over the time I have been involved professionally in the coffee industry, I've never heard of anyone or any thing, being harmed by an electrical issue with a coffee machine.  I know that doesn't mean it can't happen and all precautions should be taken to ensure it's never possible. I'm also a bit surprised that it has taken the 10amp/15amp ability this particular machine has, to raise concerns about compliance, certification, regulations, PID functionality, modifications, ISO Standards, etc.  These issues have been with us for some time and across many, if not most makes of coffee machines that many of us own and are not classified as appliances.  I'm not even sure that the new PID Lelit is or should be included in the concerns raised here? I do have some qualifications to allow me to speak about ISO Standards with some authority.  Many people interpret an ISO tick as an implication of quality annd/or safety.  While it MAY mean that, it often doesn't.  All it means is that the manufacturer (in this case) does what they say they do.  It is a big deal, but not as big a deal as most people make it out to be. Cheers Den

RichardM

on 1312019414:

Let me preface this by saying that I am very conscious of the need for safety.  I'm not an electrician. Over the time I have been involved professionally in the coffee industry, I've never heard of anyone or any thing, being harmed by an electrical issue with a coffee machine.  I know that doesn't mean it can't happen and all precautions should be taken to ensure it's never possible. I'm also a bit surprised that it has taken the 10amp/15amp ability this particular machine has, to raise concerns about compliance, certification, regulations, PID functionality, modifications, ISO Standards, etc.  These issues have been with us for some time and across many, if not most makes of coffee machines that many of us own and are not classified as appliances.  I'm not even sure that the new PID Lelit is or should be included in the concerns raised here? I do have some qualifications to allow me to speak about ISO Standards with some authority.  Many people interpret an ISO tick as an implication of quality annd/or safety.  While it MAY mean that, it often doesn't.  All it means is that the manufacturer (in this case) does what they say they do.  It is a big deal, but not as big a deal as most people make it out to be. Cheers Den

Dennis, I personally think it's noble of you to not continue the "it's safe, believe me" line (others may have differing thoughts). I think noone in this whole deal has said anything has been done intentionally wrong, and if an option to software control 15/10A is not public knowledge, and can't be accidentally accessed, it's not a problem. The fact that it has become public knowledge then makes it dangerous, because there are going to be a lot of people who think "oh, the wiring can handle it" and try and run the machine in 15A mode just for kicks no doubt. Unfortunately, end user stupidity has to come into whether a machine is safe in the eyes of the electrical standards, and it certainly should be looked at in this way. When someone runs it in 15A mode and burns out their wiring, despite the fact that it's a stupid prospect, who is it going to come back on? I guarantee it won't be on the end user.

Cuppacoffee

Oh, I still think it safe Richard. I think it far more scary when I think of the number of commercial machines I've seen that were intended to run on 15amp plugs and 20 amp circuits where the plug has been replaced with one that fits into a standard 10amp home powerpoint.  I had an old 3group delivered a few days ago in exactly that state.  What was worse is that insulation around the internal wiring was brittle.  It will be replaced as part of the restoration by experienced and qualified persons (not me!).

RichardM

on 1312020849:

Oh, I still think it safe Richard. I think it far more scary when I think of the number of commercial machines I've seen that were intended to run on 15amp plugs and 20 amp circuits where the plug has been replaced with one that fits into a standard 10amp home powerpoint.  I had an old 3group delivered a few days ago in exactly that state.  What was worse is that insulation around the internal wiring was brittle.  It will be replaced as part of the restoration by experienced and qualified persons (not me!).

Indeed, that's very scary. The difference here though is that those people who do this to their own machines have absolutely no recourse - it will definitely come back on them. If they sell the machine (even second hand, in QLD at least) they could be prosecuted (technically all machines should be tested and tagged before second hand resale, which, in practice, never happens). In this case, however, it could come back on the person who sold or (more likely) imported the machine, despite all the best intentions and knowledge that it is safe in the original configuration.

UNM

I  am enjoying learning more about the electrical regulations and what is (or is not) required - not just for coffee machines. My reading so far suggests that commercial items should still comply with electrical rules for the appropriate state (are there any federal regs?), but are not required to be certified as such prior to sale. Do correct me if I am wrong. I have no problem believing an item that can potentially draw marginally over 10a is still safe (due to normal margin for error), but regulations draw a line and that is where the compliance aspects come into play and potentially insurers or others using non-compliance as a get-out. One thing that someone here may know is what difference there is between 10a and 15a outlets/plugs, other than the larger earth terminal - which under normal circumstances would draw no current. I initially assumed that the larger earth terminal was purely to prevent plugging a high current item into multi-way power strips or extension cables with conductors incapable of handling the current. Comments elsewhere and personal experience suggest that the live terminal can suffer arcing and overheating if an appliance over 10a is plugged into a 10a outlet. The liability issues are another interesting aspect. Clearly f**king around inside electrical goods yourself leaves you with little recourse. Buying something from a trader is a different matter and the liability could potentially end up back at the manufacturer, except that they are often in a different legal jurisdiction so impossible to chase back any further than the importer. If, however, a certifying authority classed something as safe, with full disclosure of its specifications and a fault later caused injury, surely they might legitimately be held (at least partly) responsible. As for ISO standards - I think Den is referring primarily to the the ISO9000 family that are frequently misunderstood - they do imply quality, but not in the way the general public understand it and I take the 'quality assured' tick with a large pinch of salt, having been through several certifications. There are many thousands of other ISO standards, some more or less useful. As Andy Tannenbaum said "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."

Koffee_Kosmo

Quote by UNM

One thing that someone here may know is what difference there is between 10a and 15a outlets/plugs, other than the larger earth terminal - which under normal circumstances would draw no current. I initially assumed that the larger earth terminal was purely to prevent plugging a high current item into multi-way power strips or extension cables with conductors incapable of handling the current. Comments elsewhere and personal experience suggest that the live terminal can suffer arcing and overheating if an appliance over 10a is plugged into a 10a outlet.

I normally don't contribute to electrical threads because I only know the basics However for your query I had an electrician wire up a specific 15amp circuit for my Bezzera BZ40, cost me $300 The wire was run direct from the board to the plug The wire used was suitable to take a 20amp load They also do this for air conditioners Single wire to each Hope that helps KK

Gra

I like Paul have a Dedicated 15 amp line with 15 amp breaker installed  for my Alex but the other 4 power breakers in the box are 20 amp ? +10 amp or lights dose this mean that it' over done on the standard power points Gra.."Should have asked the sparks ay"

Gra

All work has been done by qualified elections no worries there. And the meters have been changed over to digital for the pool off peak so if any thing was wrong won would think they would notice . I am just curios as to the 20 amp breakers I all ways thought lights where 10 amp and gpo's where15 amp Gra..

Lacehim

How did you find about about this one AM?  I didn't think you owned an Alex DB. You should all sell your dual boilers and go buy a 10A HX machine or a Lusso!   Live would be eaiser.  Only kidding.

Brett H

on 1312030711:

How did you find about about this one AM?  I didn't think you owned an Alex DB. You should all sell your dual boilers and go buy a 10A HX machine or a Lusso!   Live would be eaiser.  Only kidding.

Yeah, that is a really good pick up AM.  It hasn't put me off wanting a DB machine but you have opened my eyes as to ensuring that myself and my property remains safe.  I'll PM you for a copy of that letter above... research is research!

Lwowiak

on 1312020849:

I had an old 3group delivered a few days ago in exactly that state.  What was worse is that insulation around the internal wiring was brittle.  It will be replaced as part of the restoration by experienced and qualified persons (not me!).

Hi Dennis, Slightly OT, but does this mean you did buy the Boema Lever? If so, congratulations! I think they are a lovely machine in their own right. Would you be kind enough to post some pictures of your acquisition? Some before and after photos if possible. Thanks in advance.

Cuppacoffee

on 1312071614:

Hi Dennis, Slightly OT, but does this mean you did buy the Boema Lever? If so, congratulations! I think they are a lovely machine in their own right. Would you be kind enough to post some pictures of your acquisition? Some before and after photos if possible. Thanks in advance.

Yes, I bought it.  Funny thing is that I used to think them ugly but they have grown on me in a kitch sort of way.  A bit disappointing, but not unexpected, to learn it wasn't 'as described'.  Will try to get some photos and post them in a new thread. Cheers Den

mycuppa

on 1312029978:

All work has been done by qualified elections no worries there. And the meters have been changed over to digital for the pool off peak so if any thing was wrong won would think they would notice . I am just curios as to the 20 amp breakers I all ways thought lights where 10 amp and gpo's where15 amp Gra..

Circuit breakers and fuses are rated slightly higher than the circuit they are protecting, e.g. 10A GPO's usually have a 15A protection, 15A circuits have a 20A and 20/25A usually have 32A device protecting. This is sometimes called the "headroom". It attempts to avoid situations of circuit overloading and annoying trip-outs caused by using appliances (or too many appliances) that may use more than the rated outlet, e.g. if you had a fridge, toaster, coffee machine, grinder, dishwasher, microwave and all sorts of other appliances all running at the same time on the same circuit, the current draw may exceed the rated level (typically, kitchens in most houses have a seperate power circuit for this reason). The other purpose of headroom is that some types of equipment, say pumps, motors, etc. have very high startup current that lasts for milliseconds. When this is averaged out over the "lag" time to melt a fuse or trip a circuit breaker, it just provides a little bit of space to again provide some buffer against annoying trip-outs. A fuse or circuit breaker is primarily there to protect against excessive currents generated by a short-circuit (as opposed to leakage to earth from some resistive appliances like irons, kettles, toasters, motors, etc. - this is what the circuit-breakers with earth-leakage protection can do - pickup very small leakages measured in milliamps). When a short occurs, you are talking about many hundreds of amps for a split second - this is what melts the fuse wire or heats the bi-metal strips in circuitbreakers to trip them open.

Gra

on 1312073156:

Circuit breakers and fuses are rated slightly higher than the circuit they are protecting, e.g. 10A GPO's usually have a 15A protection, 15A circuits have a 20A and 20/25A usually have 32A device protecting. This is sometimes called the "headroom". It attempts to avoid situations of circuit overloading and annoying trip-outs caused by using appliances (or too many appliances) that may use more than the rated outlet, e.g. if you had a fridge, toaster, coffee machine, grinder, dishwasher, microwave and all sorts of other appliances all running at the same time on the same circuit, the current draw may exceed the rated level (typically, kitchens in most houses have a seperate power circuit for this reason). The other purpose of headroom is that some types of equipment, say pumps, motors, etc. have very high startup current that lasts for milliseconds. When this is averaged out over the "lag" time to melt a fuse or trip a circuit breaker, it just provides a little bit of space to again provide some buffer against annoying trip-outs. A fuse or circuit breaker is primarily there to protect against excessive currents generated by a short-circuit (as opposed to leakage to earth from some resistive appliances like irons, kettles, toasters, motors, etc. - this is what the circuit-breakers with earth-leakage protection can do - pickup very small leakages measured in milliamps). When a short occurs, you are talking about many hundreds of amps for a split second - this is what melts the fuse wire or heats the bi-metal strips in circuitbreakers to trip them open.

Cheers and thanks Mycuppa that's what I thought and now confirmed. Gra.. 

beanflying

on 1312020849:

Oh, I still think it safe Richard. I think it far more scary when I think of the number of commercial machines I've seen that were intended to run on 15amp plugs and 20 amp circuits where the plug has been replaced with one that fits into a standard 10amp home powerpoint.  I had an old 3group delivered a few days ago in exactly that state.  What was worse is that insulation around the internal wiring was brittle.  It will be replaced as part of the restoration by experienced and qualified persons (not me!).

Just for info this is what came on my 2 group Z9. The element and pump combined are just a touch over 3000W (similar maximum power to what the preceding Duettos can be set up to draw). Some of this melting was contributed to partly by the dodgy double adaptor too.