Getting a smooth pour

daniel78

Hi all,

New here, but hoping someone can help. I've got a San Marino single group machine that's a bit old, but works fine. Except I'm having a problem with it. I'm using a 16g basket, and I think my grind is right, but when I pour, I get a nice slow, smooth start but only for about ten seconds, after which the pour becomes spluttery and messy. Probably a bit watery at that point too. Overall, the shot is thick and tastes great. But it's not how it should look, and not how it should pour. But I'm at a loss. I did take a short video of what I'm talking about, and you can download here if you want: http://www.divshare.com/download/16714995-b8b

But even at the start of that video it was pouring too fast - I've fixed the grind now, so it does come out slower and smoother at the start than in that vid. Although the very beginning does often have a rush. Any ideas why this is happening? It's driving me crazy...

Dry_bean.

How fresh are the beans your using Daniel, where did you buy them? Was not able to view the video you linked to.

daniel78

Not sure why the video didn't work, but not crucial... The beans should be fresh. They are from 9 Bar Coffee in Balgowlah, Sydney. Vacuum sealed and hydrogen flushed...

Kelsey

Do they have a 'best before' date or a 'roasted on' date on them? My rule to live by - if they have a 'best before' date then they're already stale! (Oh, and try YouTube for uploading that vid. I almost didn't approve your first post because I felt the link was a bit spammy - fortunately someone else approved before me!)

daniel78

No best before, I'm almost sure of that. But I had a conversation with the guy who roasts them, and he absolutely assured me that freshness won't be a problem in terms of when they were roasted and how they were packaged. Also, I have recently used beans from another micro-roaster on the Northern Beaches of Sydney, and I was using beans around 7-20 days from roasting and having the same problem. I just don't think that's it. But I don't know what the issue is...

Koffee_Kosmo

With regards to the video - its only viewable in QuickTime  :thumb: Not sure of the San Marino is a small commercial machine but I suspect it is so my answer is based on this assumption Commercial machines will do that due to the construction of the commercial head (not E61) Its mostly to do with the lack of pre infusion Its also important that one doses the group handle correctly I find that on most occasions that the dose/depth of the puck is most crucial Correct depth of the coffee puck is a whisker away from the shower screen at lock in This is even more crucial on a single pour extraction KK

FreshCoffee2

Whatever problem you are having in erogating your coffee, once the variable of good quality fresh beans is eliminated from the equation, and assuming a properly functioning espresso machine,  it is always something to do with: GRIND / DOSE / TAMP. Somewhere in there (ie in your technique) lies your answer. You mentioned a "16 gram filter". Are you weighing 16 grams coffee into the filter? If so, then you are most probably underdosing. Almost all commmercial espresso machines imported into this country use double filters that when dosed and tamped correctly, hold somewhere between 18 and 20 grams for any particular machine and type (origin / density / style of roast) of beans. Is the resulting puk sloppy or firm when you remove after brewing? If it"s sloppy / spongy / soft / full of water like a sponge, then it is under dosed. Repeating, your answers lie somewhere within the realms of your technique......grind / dose / tamp. OR................ San Marino machines are well known to run very HOT and to recover very quickly. Are you purging enough group water to make sure it is at an acceptable temperature before fitting up the group handle to brew....and brewing immediately before the temperature recovers back up to what any of us would consider to be too hot for an acceptable brew in this market with the types of coffee most often used here? ie are you managing (part of your coffee making technique in toto) this old clunker properly because they are well known for burning the bee-geesus out of coffee..... Attilio very first Crema site sponsor

Dry_bean.

Daniel KK is pretty switched when it comes to issues like this so would heed his advice. Re his statement "I find that on most occasions that the dose/depth of the puck is most crucial Correct depth of the coffee puck is a whisker away from the shower screen at lock in" suggest you try the 5 cent piece test, fill the porta filter, tamp and place 5 cent piece in the centre top then lock PF in, if the coin is pushed into the coffee reduce the dose a little, the object is to have a gap between the tamped coffee and shower screen approx the thickness of the 5 cent piece.

daniel78

Wow. Thanks guys, some really helpful stuff there. To respond to some of those ideas: - I have tried the 5c test before, but I don't think I was fully sure what I was aiming at. I'll give it another go and try to work out the right height (i.e. the coin making maybe a slight imprint without being pushed into the coffee) and take some bearing based on the rings on my tamper. - I have been purging the machine, since I was wondering about temperature. I always backflush and purge some water through. - When I remove the puck it is almost always solid and comes out quite easily, so I don't think I'm underdosing. Also, there is usually the mark of the screw from the screen in the middle of my puck, so if anything I'm probably overdosing... - I haven't been weighing doses. I'll do that later though, just for interest and to make sure I'm not seriously under-dosing. But my suspicion is that I'm not. Keep the thoughts coming though, if anyone has any others. Maybe my grinder isn't up to the job is another possibility. It's a Sunbeam Em0480, but it wasn't grinding fine enough, so I added some more shims I got from Sunbeam. But if I go one click finer, it will just drip through for the first 15 seconds, before speeding up...

Brett H

Great thread.  I'm not much of a gambling man despite investing in equities  :tearhair: but my money is with Atillio (Grind, Dose and Tamp).  Is there someone close by who can visit you Daniel and check your technique and also make sure the machine is working as it should.  Don't be afraid to spend some money on training it's really great fun... just make sure you can take your own machines along.  If the trainer can't get good coffee with your gear what chance do you have???  The gear you have isn't top shelf by the sounds of it, but your gear when new was certainly capable of good espresso. If however you are chasing the look of a shot from a $28000 machine or something you saw on Utoob; YET, you're happy with the taste then where is the problem?  Sometimes we get too hung up on chasing the 'God' shot and forget to enjoy our cup of coffee.

daniel78

Thanks Brett. Don't know if anyone is nearby. I'm in Five Dock in Sydney, so let's see. The coffee is tasting pretty good, but I just feel like it could be better. And I don't like the mess I'm making either! The machine isn't new (and in answer to that earlier point, yet I believe it is a commercial machine, going by the size of the thing, rather than a domestic one). How would I know whether it's an E61 head on the machine or not, by the way? Also, and I don't know if this is relevant: I have never been able to lock the handle of the portafilter in place so that it comes out from the machine at 90 degrees. It's just too tight - and that's just with the basket in there and no coffee, so not an overdosing thing. Without the basket it locks in far tighter. Is that a concern, or likely to be affecting anything?

Koffee_Kosmo

Also, and I don't know if this is relevant: I have never been able to lock the handle of the portafilter in place so that it comes out from the machine at 90 degrees. It's just too tight - and that's just with the basket in there and no coffee, so not an overdosing thing. Without the basket it locks in far tighter. Is that a concern, or likely to be affecting anything?

Thats the head seal Some seals are made of hard compound rubber and also with age they become hard with heat & age A new seal with a softer compound rubber will fix that up

How would I know whether it's an E61 head on the machine or not, by the way?

An E61 Head Commercial Head

Maybe my grinder isn't up to the job is another possibility. It's a Sunbeam Em0480, but it wasn't grinding fine enough, so I added some more shims I got from Sunbeam. But if I go one click finer, it will just drip through for the first 15 seconds, before speeding up...

As for the grinder It's more important in the coffee process than most people give it credit for KK

daniel78

Ok. Well my group head looks nothing like that one, so I'll assume it's NOT an E61. And maybe I'll borrow a more serious grinder from someone at some point if I'm still struggling. I don't have hundreds of bucks in my budget for a new grinder at the present, and I definitely wouldn't go that way unless I knew it was going to help me out. But thanks for the heads up.

UNM

Quick thoughts. Most if not all commercial machines will have some form of information plate telling you model, power etc. Might help if we knew the model. Can you take a photo and post it here? Is  there a brew pressure gauge? if so what does it read during extraction? Perhaps trying ' Weiss Distribution Technique' would help (plenty of info on the net about it).

FreshCoffee2

There can really only be 2 models it could be. a) fully commercial 1 group machine (large / heavy / requires connect to mains water) and b) A semi commercial San Marino "Compact" in either of two configurations: i) older cube shaped body, stainless steel with gold looking trim around the cup tray at top ( from memory), lid over the internal water tank at RHS top,  or ii) the later "CKX" model, a taller looking machine with stainless steel body, but  with a black plastic top sitting over all of the top of the machine ie black plastic cup tray complete (and also with lid over the internal water tank at RHS top). Commercial machine definitely has a water pressure gauge, and from memory I think also the Compacts but if they are older machines I wouldnt necessarily expect them to still be working, especially on an older Compact which by now if described in human terms is about 120 years old and more than geriatric. Also if you are getting dry puks that come out reasonably solid and with the mark of the grub screw, then you are not underfilling the filter. After that, it is impossible to advise further without seeing what it is you are concerned about. I for one couldnt open the link you provided up top because my anti virus business "suite" decided it looked suspicious and blocked it.  It's looking after me  ;D I will say, if you put one of these machines next to a more modern / newer semi commercial machine (albeit retro style), then brew coffee using the same coffee, suitable grind for each and proper operator technique, you will notice quite a difference in the performance of the two machines. So....is your concern due to something you are doing, or is it to do with the possibility you may be using a tired old machine that may need some tweaking or upgrade, or could you get a better result by upgrading the grinder? I really dont know without having a chance to check it in the flesh.

Koffee_Kosmo

I for one couldn't open the link you provided up top because my anti virus business "suite" decided it looked suspicious and blocked it.  It's looking after me  ;D

Re:- Video It needs to be downloaded or "open with"  and played with Apple Quick Time No viruses  :thumb: I noticed a single spout group handle but uncertain as to the size of the basket KK

RichardM

on 1329271582:

Vacuum sealed and hydrogen flushed...

Hydrogen???????????????? Keep away from naked flames!!!!! I hope you mean nitrogen.

Lacehim

I struggled with my San Marino CK (black ABS lid) with this same issue.  I was using a pullman, with a ridgeless synesso double.  In the end I bought a ridgeless triple and it was much better.  Chewed through the coffee though when your only making a double ristretto for just little old me!  :D  I was getting big holes at the sides, so definately channeling in my case.  I was using a Compak K6 so the grinder wasn't an issue. I sold it before I really got it spot on, but I was making progress with the double after playing a little, and dose was the key.  On my machine the screen was convex, and I could only get a decent pour when I updosed a little.  I never got to try a convex tamper with it, which I did want to try.  A buyer came along just as I was about to borrow one from AM.  8) I also considered some more training, that really sorted out my problems I had with my Miss Lucy.  2 hours with Tim Adams, and I was pulling amazing shots one after the other!!! How's the milk steaming going?  Mine was very powerful with a 5 hole tip.  Totally different to Miss Lucy, and took some getting used to.

FreshCoffee2

and in the end if Daniel is reasonably happy with his brews, is there really a problem?

daniel78

Thanks for all the suggestions. Some more info: - The machine, I believe, is a commercial one. Picture and picture of info plate attached. It's a massive heavy thing that doesn't have its own water reservoir. - Yes, it does have a 5 hole tip on the wand which is very aggressive. Currently 2 of them are being contained by toothpicks... - My tamper is a slightly concave Pullman one. It's not custom, but it's 57 point something, and it fits pretty well. - Yes, the coffee is nitro flushed, not hydrogen. I hope. - RE: the pressure gauge, the needle flaps all over the place during extraction between about 8-10 I'd say. I assume the machine's in good working order. I bought it second hand after it had been dormant for several years, but a repairer on the northern beaches who I think knows what he's doing looked over it, replaced some valves and switches and told me it would go for a 'thousand years'. I should have got that in writing in hindsight...! I am pretty happy with the coffee - I just wish it wouldn't splatter about. Maybe the grinder is the difference, I don't know. The truth is, this machine is very big for my kitchen. I just don't think I could sell it and get something smaller that would be as good without forking our more cash, which I don't have. Anyone want to give me an indication of what something like this is worth if I sold it?

FreshCoffee2

a) it is a full size 1 group commercial machine; b) back to grind / dose / tamp c) it will benefit greatly from a far better grinder than the one you are using which really is only barely adequate in terms of the grinder and machine being a "matched set". d) as I said in the beginning they run very hot and aggressive so your technique should be always to make sure you have purged any steaming gurgling water from the group before fitting the group handle and brewing immediately before it gets a chance to recover upwards again. e) some comments have to be taken in the broader context. These machines would run for a thousand years if you let them, the limitation on the comment is that unfortunately for about 999 of those years they are running badly and absolutely annihilating your coffee, if you dont keep after them.... f) in terms of grind / dose / tamp I am not necessarily a fan of the so called "5 cent" test and tend to like the level of grinds in my filter to be a little higher. I fit the dosed / tamped group handle to a DRY group (so the grinds dont stick to the shower) and remove immediately to see if I get an imprint of the outer shower surround ring on top of the puk of dry grinds. If I dont see a light kiss of an imprint of the surround of the shower screen on the grinds, I put a little more in. That is how I work out how much to dose on any particular machine. I think dosing that little extra into the filter gives a better coffee, and you can adjust the pour of course by fiddling the grind adjustment & tamp to suit. That may or may not help your spluttering at the end of your pours, but I reckon it will do you a better espresso regardless. g) in the broader context of this topic then, and in view of the discussion so far, my final advice is to invest in a grinder that is more suitable to the type of machine you are using, which will I think improve your coffee in any case whether the pour continues to splutter a bit as it approaches the end or not. Hope that helps. Attilio very first Crema site sponsor, and espresso machine psychologist  :stir