The Descale Myth

Brett H

Hi Cremacastrians,

I've had my brand new Diadema Dual Boiler PID for four months now.  I've been running it for the last month on triple action filtered water but before that I was only using dual action 0.1micron water.  It's definitely time for a Descale because I've noticed some scale in the kettle over by the microwave under the cupboards.  The kettle doesn't get filtered water but pedantry is not a lonely bedfellow on these forums, thus I thought I'd just better check in here first rather than ringing my retailer or getting some professional advice.

Now, I've purchased some diluted hydrochloric acid and some caustic soda to balance.  My question is this: what order do I use them and is this something I should be doing in the bathroom, in situ on the kitchen bench or in a well ventillated area such as in the local Rotary park?

P.s the coffee tastes great, the machine works well but surely a bit of preventative descaling can't do anything but improve an already great machine??

derrilex

Yep, agree. Bugger that Brett

Lwowiak

Brett, I brought this issue up with Gundrill Trading (water filter mob). He then suggested to use an inline magnetic descaler, especially for coffee machines. I was skeptical, but hooked up my Boema to the filters (machine is plumbed in). I ran a lot of water through the hot water taps and group head. I did notice some  specks come through at first, then everything has been fine since. I regularly purge a fair bit of water through the hot water taps to freshen the boiler. I was considering a descale, as my machine is 10 years old, but do not believe it needs it. If it is working fine, why touch it? As a test, run some water through the group head into a glass, let it cool and taste it. If fine, then do not touch the machine. The same for the water coming through the hot water tap. QLD has very good water. SA and WA are notorious for scale, and foul tasting water from the tap.

UNM

If descaling, I would go the citric acid route with a compete disassembly of boiler, pipes etc. to avoid any issues with flakes of dislodged scale ending up where they shouldn't I have a two group commercial that had a hard working life before I got it, 7 or 8 years old. It has NOT  required descaling. Another vote from me for "it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Brett H

I'm glad that my Tounge in cheek post has elicited some excellent responses that are better articulated than any post I could put together.  I wasn't trolling, just merely posing a common question/myth that i had no ability or expertise to dispell.  Of course a four month old machine run on filtered water doesn't require a Descale and neither should any machine unless there is a direct problem but this is rarely mentioned by the manufacturers of the Descale solution.  Chris at Bezzera almost refused to sell me Descale solution for my old HX saying that unless there is an operational problem there is little point to taking preventative action that potentially endangers the operation of the machine and in some instances the user.  It's a very classy retailer that offers this sort of advice to the detriment of a sale.  :thumb:

derrilex

You A Hole. Had us all wound up  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ronin

on 1334376005:

I'm glad that my Tounge in cheek post has elicited some excellent responses that are better articulated than any post I could put together.  I wasn't trolling, just merely posing a common question/myth that i had no ability or expertise to dispell.  Of course a four month old machine run on filtered water doesn't require a Descale and neither should any machine unless there is a direct problem but this is rarely mentioned by the manufacturers of the Descale solution. 

Um Yeah, tongue in cheek. Sure it is Nice save there Brett  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Brett H

on 1334380331:

You A Hole. Had us all wound up  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Not really my intention, hence the title... But what a bonus  :P I thought I was all over this topic but have learned more than a couple of valuable things here.  Thanks guys! As a serious footnote, I have a mate who wants me to Descale his Via Venezia but it's only been fed quality filtered water and I am reluctant.  If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Brett H

on 1334384459:

Um Yeah, tongue in cheek. Sure it is Nice save there Brett  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah Nup, really.. That bottle of HCl is for the Ermmm, aquarium. It gets mighty dirty...  :angel:

Muscles

Lol, a very literal bunch we have here at Crema, my mortar & pestle post was supposed to be tongue in cheek too but the replies made me think I should actually give it a go... Meanwhile, I might rip the BDB apart and descale this weekend, after all it's about 9 months old now... Thanks for the advice guys

Muscles

Don't worry, I realize now that I am evidently too strong to be handling tools. :D will get the wife to do up all bolts, nuts etc so they are not overtightened.

FreshCoffee2

........................cool! :thumb: A coffee forum with some sanity.....how novel 

Kester

I went the citric acid way and descaled both my Quaha coffee machines. One is Quaha Junior Serie II, and the other one is Quaha Napoletana. Junior is 11yrs old now, and Napoletana is 10. The last service date for both machines are 5 and 3 years ago. It turned out, green and moldy water came out of both machines. I kept the machines turned on and the boilers heated overnight. The next day, I was flushing the machines with tap water. After the first liter flush, the water coming out of the machine tasted foul. It took me more than 3 liters of water for each machine to rid the foul taste. Any suggestions if I should disassemble the boilers?

Brett H

on 1338291841:

Regardless of time...  Quality of the water and if any problems should be the factor that says to Strip or de scale. Over all I would say, don't bother de scaling and not to use citric acid. Citric acid has it's uses in a total strip and clean can be useful. But the first question is why even decide to de scale ?  The other forums are wrong, it is not a positive proactive thing to do... Good water first and after that regular maintenance, but a de scale is not maintenance. It is a repair / recovery. And if it is needed, then strip a do a real job not a half hearted job that will end up causing more problems that you had to start with.

Bloody oath mate!!  Where is the 'like' button or this post?  :thumb:

Kester

Hey thanks for the advices guys. The reason why I had to put citric acid into my boiler is that my coffee machine broke down. First I thought it was the rubber gaskets being old (5yrs or so) and leak water, which lead me to think that the pumps were getting old and lost their ability to pump at full strength. Third, I thought something must be blocking the grouphead from dispensing water properly. Therefore, I went the easy way and gotten myself a $3 citric acid powder and boy it did the job! I already bought some new gaskets for the machines, it seems like I wont be needing them now The remaining question is, as you said, "a de scale is not maintenance. It is a repair / recovery.". What else can I do to ensure it will serve me well for another 5-10yrs?

FreshCoffee2

on 1338279145:

I went the citric acid way and descaled both my Quaha coffee machines. ........... I kept the machines turned on and the boilers heated overnight. The next day, I was flushing the machines with tap water. After the first liter flush, the water coming out of the machine tasted foul. It took me more than 3 liters of water for each machine to rid the foul taste....

Hello Kester. When running a descale "cycle", do not leave the boiler switched on ie descale cold. The way I do it, is to switch on the machine only for long enough to pump the descaling solution through the boiler and out the group. Then SWITCH OFF for the period of time that you leave it in there "soaking", then switch back on when you want to run the next lot of solution through, and switch OFF again etc until you are finished pumping the solution through. Same for when you subsequently run clean water through to flush out the remainder of the descaling solution. IE....dont descale hot, and that may be why you had to run a lot of water through later to get rid of the foul taste. Simple domestic machines used in places with relatively good water, are not really going to be affected long term by scale ie, unlikely to get blocked up over long periods. So as others have said, why bother with the "preventative" descale. If you are in an area known for very hard water, by all means descale your domestic machine OR, be proactive and take preventive action with an appropriate water conditioning "filter" (and then dont need to descale), because if the water is too hard for the coffee machine, it is also too hard for the kettle and everything else in your home that you use water with including for showering, laundry, cooking, washing the cars, and drinking. Anyone that has a more expensive more technical semi commercial machine, should be doing that anyways. Hope that helps. PS I guess if you had bought a proprietary descaler instead of a chemical, the instructions for descaling (or the instructions for descaling in the machine's handbook) would have mentioned not to allow the machine to heat up during the process.

UNM

some useful feedback, but of course there is a sense of locking the stable door too late  as machine  has already been descaled, hopefully without any long term damage. incidentally, green water after a citric descale does not indicate scale or mould. I am pretty sure it simply means there is copper in the machine. my tip for preventative action - talk to someone who specialises in water filtration (Bombora spring to mind). water supplies vary dramatically around the country. They can give advice on what, if any, filtration is needed. oh - aquarium suppliers are also pretty clued up on water. They can probably advise on what your local water is like.

Kester

Thanks for the feedback guys, :pan I learnt my lesson, not to make any rushed decisions just to fulfill my curiosity (reg. descaling in warm temperature). I hope my machines will still perform for the next few years. UNM is right, one thing for sure is, the boiler element is made out of copper, as well as the boiler tube. Why copper + citric acid = green water remains a question mark. My place doesn't have a filtration system, its just tap water I have been using. I have received my Lelit steam wand Pro today, and will start to figure out what tools that I'll need to have my old steam wand replaced. I consider this as an upgrade, as this new steam tip is much better.

RichardM

on 1339122913:

Why copper + citric acid = green water remains a question mark.

Unbalanced reaction below, and I'm sure Jonty will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong: 2Cu + H2O + C6H8O7 -> Cu(OH)2 + CuCO3 + H2O + CO2??? Copper + Water + Citric Acid = Copper Hydroxide and Copper (II) Carbonate + Water + Carbon Dioxide Either way, the Copper Hydroxide and Copper Carbonate are both green in solution.

RichardM

AM: copper (I) oxide is red. Copper (II) oxide is black. Just sayin'

Brett H

Okay, with Christmas just around the corner I wanted to revive this thread and remind myself that it's time to check the water quality.  If we don't we can always have professionals like these lovely ladies descale our machines: http://blog.seattlecoffeegear.com/2013/11/11/descale-rocket-espresso-r58/ I've never used the portafilter to lift my machine but it's an excellent tip. Please don't tell Attilio....