Basic questions: ask here

BP

Hi Fresh Coffee Thanks again for your response. I would be interested in looking (online) at your 2 group lever machines you speak of.  Can you send me a link?  And prices too? Regards BP PS not sure if this is an ok question to ask of you here on this forum.

Lwowiak

Hi BP, I have a 1 group Bosco, and am very happy with it. They are well made, and easy to service. Only electrical part is the element. A very good choice if you have to service the machine yourself. The portafilter is 58mm. There is an Australian agent, but you may be better off buying direct from Bosco. I would buy a 2 or 3 group unit for a business, not a single group. I agree with everything said above, but would like to add one element that everyone is missing. In today's cutthroat market, people do not want just a coffee, they want a story, romance and theatre if possible. Watching someone use a lever machine always draws interest, and is a good form of marketing for your business. Regardless of the food or beverage, the theatre of making, preparing or serving it is very important. People want to be entertained and educated, and are happy to pay a premium for this. Good operators realise this, and incorporate it into their offering. While new is always good, a well serviced second hand lever machine is excellent value. It will save you money. There is not a lot to go wrong with levers, so do check out what Fresh Coffee is offering. It just may be the perfect machine to get you started. good luck with your venture!

BP

Hi there Lwowiak There have been a few responses to my questions on lever machines.  (very good)  You mentioned 'fresh coffee' as a place to visit and look at a second hand Bosco. ??  Are you able to give me the link to that site?  Two group lever is my preference but shopping around would be helpful. Cheers BP

Brett H

Brilliant thread!  Welcome BP!!  Thank you FC.... More myth-busting than Mythbusters!

FreshCoffee2

Brett, appreciate your comments  As promised, here are some quick and dirty photos of production set ups taken while doing the walk throughs. There are 5 photos @ BFC factory near Venice. One photo @ Rancilio factory outskirts of Milano. Different approaches to the same thing. Small components assembled at work benches, taken to other benches and forever assembled into larger and larger assemblies, then these large bits are assembled into frames on the trolleys or prod line where electrics are then added and each skeleton keeps "growing" into a complete machine at the end...all hand made 

FreshCoffee2

BP, have sent you a PM  I should have mentioned...my people imported the 2 & 3 group BFC Lever machines that we now have in stock, for the purpose of keeping one to use in our own cafe, and sell the other (which ever we didnt end up using). It turns out they are both for sale because our baristas are small ladies and it was decided the ergonomics for them using the lever machines in a busy situation just dont work. To be perfectly honest, you should have no fear as Lever machines are relatively simple in addition to the fact we imported these for our own use and would not import something that will not perform in the required manner.... also have been dealing with this manufacturer since year 2000 (16 years) and their equipment is of excellent standard and very reliable. Just tried to insert a pdf file for you but its too big.... please refer to PM.

BP

Hi Fresh Coffee Yeah, send any other info and pics to my email address.  i tried sending you a note on the PM page but it didn't send.  I haven't got the hang of this website and all the jargon yet. Cheers BP

FreshCoffee2

Hello BP. ha ! I was out on the chainsaw and a heap of messages came in including a phone call so stopped and removed the ear muffs and here I am... Your PM came through but you just sent me what I had written to you with no reply included... I'll send you another PM with my email address, just copy and paste that into your emails and we'll pick it up from there. cheers...

Brett H

Wonderful pics FC!  All that bling in one place!! 

BP

Hi the CF folk Is it possible to buy a KKTO roaster any where?  I realise they are no longer being made.  Would there be second hand options?? ::) Thanks BP

Brett H

on 1455352212:

Hi the CF folk Is it possible to buy a KKTO roaster any where?  I realise they are no longer being made.  Would there be second hand options?? ::) Thanks BP

Hi mate KK has made some wonderful versions of this roast over the years.  He is the man to contact. I'll drop him a PM and he can come into the thread and advise.

BP

Hi Brett H Thanks for your action on this.  I did send kk an email via his site and he had no suggestions.  No one sells them once bought:)  all happy customers.  He said he's stopped production these days.  I will do something, the KKTO is the best option for me.  I ought to save my dong for now. doh: I would be interested to know if there was the 'best version' to build or if they are only improvements on his original idea.  Have seen pictorial plans on his site and I have watched a couple of utube vids. Cheers BP

Brett H

Pasta pot set 7 litres only, windscreen wiper motor, turbo oven, fan and bucket for a cooler.... The hardest bet is the agitator.  This is where the KKTO is a dark art.  I have a couple of sockets, drill adapter, rotisserie fork and copper pipe for mine.  I do easily one kilo in under 16 minutes.  Every version is different and will require tweaking dare I say it even the unit purchased from KK... although this would work the best soonest.  Paul hasn't answered my email to this home account either so I say he's frantic at work.  Leg the building begin my friend... Start a thread so we can advise and cheat you on.  You may even get some of us to post up our handy work for your inspiration!

Koffee_Kosmo

I have secured some returning contracts and so very very very time poor at present until I get on top of the work schedule I have advised BP to build the first version roaster as it is the most economical version to build with all used parts BP is from Vietnam so I have to be mindful of the geographic area and what can be sourced KK 

Brett H

Great to hear from you KK! 

BP

Thanks Brett  H and kk Yes this is the way to go.  No short cuts.  Sourcing some gear will take time, it is all here.  I saw a big turbo oven today, just looked at it, took it apart, 1,400w I think. Told my wife I want the top part only but not the base, dish etc!!!! she thought I was a crazy foreigner.  I will ask for tips if needed.  I will get back to you, give me time to go shopping. And, thanks for the offers of support, that is cool. Cheers BP Vit Nam

BP

Hi there I have found  1000w TO some chinese make. Is 1000w ok I have read some are using 1200 or 1400. Cheers BP

Koffee_Kosmo

No Get a 1400 W model BP

Brett H

Yes... This is a very important factor!,

BP

Hi there I was able to buy a 1300 watt TO.  It was made in Japan.  I saw others, made in China, most were lower powered, 600w and up.  Oven cooking here is not common so these appliances and not stocked by many shops.  There was one Chinese model at 1300w but it looked flimsy and possibly a problem child.  So I bought the reliable Japanese Sanaky brand, 1300w. Now for the bits to make it all work.  I will call in and up date but it'll take time.  I know things like the workings of the armature for the wiper motor and temperature data logger are still a bit of a curious mystery to me. But the fog is lifting. Cheers, and I appreciate the helpful advice from KK and BH and CF very much. BP

Basic Barista

Hello, I'm new to this whole forum business so I hope I'm doing this right. I'd like to ask a question about dose vs grind size when extracting a perfect shot of espresso. What I aim for is a nice firm dry biscuit that has an imprint of the shower screen in it, I look for the time to be within 25-30 seconds, pour to be steady and consistent, with a persistent crema and a tiger's tail pattern on the surface. The problem I am having is that recently I have started working at a new cafe and while most customers are happy with my coffee's and have often stated I make the best coffees in town, there are other customers that have reported a funny taste in the coffee's recently. We have in the last month started using a digital grinder, and myself and the other barista are now able to make adjustments a lot easier but it has lead to some confusion about what to actually change in terms of grind size or dose amount to achieve a good tasting coffee. As I mentioned above, I look for the typical signs of espresso and would rather have more dose in the basket and a finer grind which achieves the signs I am looking for, however, the other barista is now wanting to go back to using the manual grinder as she believes it is the grinder that has been making the funny taste. I would like to investigate whether perhaps the funny taste has more to do with the settings I have been working with rather than the grinder itself. And by funny taste I am unsure exactly what they meant as I haven't been part of the conversations when they are talking about it. I also wonder if perhaps it is because when I pour the beverages I am careful to ensure I maintain the crema on top of the beverages so perhaps because they are not used to tasting the actual coffee prior to it mixing with the milk, they aren't aware that it is in fact the normal bitter taste that they are talking about. Thank you in advance for your feedback and just to clarify what my actual question is: when using the digital grinder, should we be setting the dose amount to be higher to achieve a good espresso or have less dose and focus more on the grind size to achieve the time, pour and crema we are looking for? Thanks.

Brett H

Great question.  Wish I was qualified to answer it!!  Oh, what the heck: Make a plunger coffee/long black with the beans to rule them out. Find out who the talkers are and make them a coffee adding the milk after stirring in the creama. Run the grinders side by side. Bear in mind that new grinders take a little time to settle in.... Not the grinder itself as much as the relationship between staff and the new grinder. Keep in touch mate!  There will be real pros along shortly to expand and improve my basic tips above.

Basic Barista

Thanks Brett, I appreciate your feedback and look forward to hearing from others as well  ;D Thanks again  :coffee2:

GaryatGala

Hello Basic Barista and welcome. Will ask a few questions first and attempt to get an idea before delving deeper. What grinder and espresso machine are you using? I presume the digital grinder is grind on demand. Do you have a small set of scales that can weigh the portafilter basket with grounds in it? One thing we have to establish first is consistency in dosage and that,s where scales come in, even when using a Mazzer Robur.

FreshCoffee2

on 1457919565:

"....when using the digital grinder, should we be setting the dose amount to be higher to achieve a good espresso or have less dose and focus more on the grind size to achieve the time, pour and crema we are looking for?... Thanks.

Hi there. Not trying to be facetious, serious post please bear with me just trying to help: Do you think there is a "funny taste",or not? You seem to only be going on what a client allegedly said to someone else...the other barista?...If so, does she think there is a "funny taste", or not? If not, why try to accommodate something that someone said when its basically hearsay? If you think there really is a "funny taste", you will need to determine what you think is going on first. After that, the question cannot be answered in a straight forward way because: a) it depends on the individual who is setting the grinder and what he/she desires in the character of the brew. By changing grind VS dose VS tamp you get different characters. b) we don't know the modus operandi of your cafe being how do you make the coffee /  what is the desired effect? Standard filters ("baskets") and split pours a la "standard espresso" spec OR, std filters no split (ie double dose everything / use naked etc), Larger than std filters, split pour, OR, larger than std filter no split / naked. c) additionally we don't know the character of your coffee supply or what it cups like in any of these scenarios nor in the particular size of cups you use. I understand this may sound difficult but it is nothing more than the reality in a coffee world where no one wants to do anything "standard". If you desire to have the same character in the coffee, as you used to have when using the previous grinder, there is no reason why the "digital" (presumably a programmable grind on demand) grinder cannot be set up to achieve that. But you have to do the leg work by changing grind VS dose VS tamp and cupping, until you achieve the desired result. You are johnnyonthespot, and we are not  What will you do, if the changes you make to grind/dose/tamp are all good, just different in character?  You have to decide which you like best, and that is what you will present to your clients. That is, you are not trying to present to hundreds of clients, what you think each on e wants, you are presenting to them what you, the pro baristas and your coffee supplier, decide is a great product to sell to them. Its impossible to keep individual clients happy if they all want something different....Do you see where I am coming from? The other thing that comes to mind is the following and it has to do with client / coffee psychology, and again, it is up to you to try and interpret what these people have told you so that you may or may not even bother making any changes. a) Is the "new" coffee good, but just different? What do YOU think? If so, why change back to the "old" scenario? b) Often when clients see a change (eg new / different type equipment / grinder), they feel they need to make an observation. If there is a real difference what does it mean if the coffee is still great? Not all clients have a good palate or know what they are talking about. Do you trust these clients to have told you something legit, or is it just a bum steer? What do YOU think? c) It is EXTREMELY difficult to make an observation about a new coffee VS the old coffee, when the old coffee is gone and only exists in the memory of the adjudicator. The only legitimate way to make a legitimate comparison is to do a one on one, side by side comparison. Observations made by clients who you really don't know,  with capability of palate and/or bona fides unknown, when relying on their memory of the "old" coffee, have to be treated with a certain level of suspicion AND they can often be proven wrong if you suggest to them that you have now "fixed that problem" and give them another cuppa where you actually didn't change a thing......and they then make the observation that this coffee is great and "back to normal".... Certainly you need to listen to them and treat their observations seriously, but then you need to be able to work out a solution and it may be that you shouldn't actually do anything if YOU don't think there is a need to. That's all just client psychology.  You are in charge of the coffee making station. You need to be able to understand this stuff and be able to set the equipment to do what you want. That is the essence of a real, professional barista. Seek help certainly (should be your coffee supplier) , but only so that you can learn from your helper, not so the helper does the work for you without you knowing what he's done (which is unfortunately what a lot of "baristas" do)... Remember the old proverb....a man tells a fisherman that he's hungry. The fisherman teaches the hungry man how to fish....he doesn't just give the hungry man a meal or a fish to cook...this way the hungry man will be able to look after himself forever more, instead of relying on others handouts...). Reiterating a comment above.....you should involve your coffee supplier. If he is a career professional (in this day and age, many aren't....) coffee roaster, he knows the coffee and will be able to help you achieve what he thinks is a good character in the cup.... Lastly. You asked a very good question that shows you are thinking straight. Keep it up, and you will do better than most, who are nothing more than equipment operators who abdicate from all responsibility of the equipment settings  and the end result in the cup, often "blaming" the coffee (and supplier) for something that is actually happening at their own work station (most often, because they don't know how to set a grinder up to a machine for best results with the supply of beans...its a vicious circle) Are you cupping first up each morning to see if you need to make any adjustments before opening for biz, and then occasionally cupping through the day to make small adjustments? This is a must in a pro outfit, and if you are already doing this, all the above is a moot point as you presumably already have good coffee (so what does it matter if someone thinks something changed...) Hope that helps  EDIT...I should say, the capital letters in references to "YOU" above are nothing to do with *yelling*. They are to indicate that in fact what YOU think really is important in the scheme of things. I could have bolded lower case letters but that's just a chore and far easier to just write the capitals...

DizzBean

Hello all I am new to this forum but have posted in the "New Here" area already, but now I have some questions. I am soooooo tired of researching and NOT finding the information I want, so I am hoping that someone here can either answer my questions (using their infinite coffee wisdom} OR direct me to the RIGHT place to find my answers. Pretty Please, please, please ...... ;D Question 1: I have been advised that a gas powered coffee machine is the best kind for a mobile business. If this is correct who does the installation or are there places that provide the machine and installation??? Question 2: If not a gas machine then what would be the most cost effective and reliable commercial machine to buy (rent to buy). I am thinking about an Expobar Ruggero 2 Group (spelling?). Question 2: What is the correct way to plumb in a coffee machine in a mobile business. I have a small trailer van, not a van(vehicle) I understand that my questions may not be particularly basic but if anyone can give me guidance, it would be totally fabulous as I am pulling my hair out looking. Also I am dubious to ask companies for advice as the ones I have sent enquires to just tell me the bare minimum and leave me none the wiser (sort of). Anyhoo, thanks to all who read this. Cheers DizzBean  :coffee2:

Koffee_Kosmo

Both Gas and Electric setups are used With a Gas machine system you will still need electricity for other equipment via a generator I have personally seen more all Electric setups than Gas / Electric Advice Do a phesability study on cost to setup yourself "against" purchasing an existing business "against" purchasing a franchise You may be surprised P.S - A Rugaroo is a good workhorse and you are welcome to contact me for advice when required KK

mycuppa

There are not many gas espresso machines on the market. I know Fracino is typically a brand that that is popular. Some installations require a type B gas certification. Why I know this is because my Type B guy in Melbourne was engaged to do a certification recently for a mobile coffee van that had a gas fired espresso machine. Gas is perhaps a less common system, but it does have numerous advantages over electric. Generators are items that require maintenance and have lower overall reliability. Gas installation requires a licensed plumber and depending upon the implementation may require inspection and certification by the local State Energy Safe. This can be many thousand $$, but so is a good compressor. The other issue you face is that you will need electricity for the grinder and maybe a few other appliances like pumps, grinders and the espresso machine itself, so you need a generator anyway it's just a smaller unit for gas powered espresso machine. Plumbing in a machine is very simple and you can call a plumber if you get stuck. The most important piece you have not mentioned is water filtration........by far the most critical system in the coffee solution for a mobile operator.....sometimes the water supply is questionable at events. You need water tanks and waste......and also for hand cleaning and rinsing.....so you might be best to actually find someone with an existing van setup and make a note of everything they have installed......it's not simple and getting everything implemented in a small space requires clever thinking.....not just connecting pipes, etc. Good luck The Expobar is a good choice for a mobile system.

DizzBean

Thanks for those answers.  ^-^ I already have a van with  plumbed sinks(hot and cold), electricity is all wired and certified by a licenced electrician,  15amp with an inlet (for coffee machine) and four 10amp double power points that will draw power from another inlet. I was asking about the gas set up because I am trying to get out of using a large generator, my capital has been depleted by unexpected expenses ( I had to have the whole thing rewired) and I still have so much to obtain. I want to be able to set up in a paddock somewhere, if I am asked to do so, but that will require an independent power supply and I do not want to spend $6000 on a generator. With the two inlets I thought I may be able to use two smaller generators instead of the bigger more expensive unit, but if gas will help me to make the power supply dilemma easier, I am willing to consider it. As for the coffee machine plumbing/water filtration, I am looking for any suggestions that will help me to get the right equipment. For example a water pump to move the water from the tank to the coffee machine. Does anyone know where I can find that sort of information, and please don't say Google because I need more than a "spider" search engine can give me. Once again any recommendations of reliable information sources, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all DizzBean.

askthecoffeeguy

you shouldn't need a lot of juice to run a two group machine I would personally be leaning towards a generator as you can fire up other items like fridge, grinder etc at the same time  small generators are going for very reasonable prices at the moment and youd need to look into the viability but im pretty sure a small one would do the job and you can hire larger ones for events at very reasonable prices ive always prefered to own my own equipment but you can choose to rent to own as well and there's a lot of great and reasonably priced options for two groups - id suggest going to a showroom and having a look at whats available before making a selection you could try contacting some of the sponsors here to see if they can help point you in the right direction  eel free to PM me also if you would like some additional pointers / showroom recommendations best, pat