BAR pressure-1.5 how important? adjust

ryan

DEAR

FreshCoffee2

Ryan,   think you may be confusing boiler (steam) pressure, with in line water pressure for the brewing water. A) For steam pressure, 1.5 bars as way too much and results in superheated heat exchanger water that burns the grinds as it passes through into the cup. The normal maximum factory set pressure on commercial espresso machines is around 1.1 bars. For inline water  (or pump) pressure, 15 bars is an oft quoted and irrelevant figure used by marketing companies selling domestic coffee machines and it only stands for max rated pump pressure, not CORRECT WORKING PRESSURE which is only between 8 to 10 bars. Sounds like the machine is probably ok....dont fix it if it aint broke! Regardz, FC.

ryan

thanks FC referring to boiler pressure...........top guage on the machine its currently at rest on   .9   but goes to 1.1 during pour etc but the red highlighted area is on 1.5 so i figured it should be there thats all... i was in a coffee store yesterday though and guy had 4 or so machines on display and they seemed to operating at 1.5 i seem to get a lack of crema, covers espresso but not very thick.  ie 2-3mm   and i thought by turning this setting up may increase the crema. your right it is a pro machine i have good grinder, fresh beans etc.................but was thinking of adjusting this setting to attain this.    ie more crema i await your knowledge. again thanks for the reply. ryan

ryan

just made espresso seems low boiler pressure ...well lower than i said....         tamped hard but not too hard machine slowly poured........went down at one stage to .8 bar then machine beeped like warning sound..  bar creeped back to 1    and then trickle continued....beep stopped. can i notch it slightly.. thanks

FreshCoffee2

Ryan, : "...referring to boiler pressure...........top guage on the machine its currently at rest on   .9   but goes to 1.1 during pour etc..." You are looking at steam (boiler) pressure. The fact the steam pressure gauge moves while you are pouring coffee, has nothing to do with pumping pressure during the pour. They are independent of eachother. The boiler is simply maintaining itself within it's working range of steam  pressure. "...but the red highlighted area is on 1.5 so i figured it should be there thats all..." Diff manufactureres colour their guages in different ways in diff places but I can assure you, a 1.5 bar boiler pressure is way way way too high so in this case it's a safe bet the red colour probably indicates you ***shouldnt*** set the steam pressure up to 1.5 bar and or if it reaches 1.5, it's time to call the tech. They all operate in a range somewhere between 0.9 and 1.2 bars, give or take. "...i seem to get a lack of crema....and i thought by turning this setting up may increase the crema...." "...i have good grinder, fresh beans etc...but was thinking of adjusting this setting to attain this ie more crema..."   "...seems low boiler pressure ...well lower than i said....    tamped hard but not too hard...machine slowly poured........went down at one stage to .8 bar then machine beeped like warning sound..  bar creeped back to 1    and then trickle continued....beep stopped...can i notch it..." Please dont or you will put it OUT of adjustment. All this is most usually governed by any combination of: A) operator technique, age of coffee & how it's been stored; C) fineness of grind; D) dose of grinds in filter; C) tamping. **************** When a water pump is failing (or has failed), this will affect the pumping pressure during coffee brewing and with machines that are connected to the mains, the WATER PRESSURE GUAGE will often indicate backwards from its resting position. So from around a resting figure of 4 bars, inestead of increasing to somewhere over 8 bars during brewing, the guage will indicate less than 4 bars (anywhere between 4 and zero), while virstually no no coffee is brewed. This is an entirely diff scenario to that which I think you are describing. ******************** The thing is, if you think something is wrong you really need to take it to a service tech or call one out because it is very difficult to see if something else might be happening unless the tech is testing the machine in person. Regardz, FC.

ryan

thanks FC for your advice i have studied your reply and viewed  guages closely... water pressure does rest on 4 it goes to 7-8 during a pour. i would like to tweak it to 9 as when i feel i may get better brew by doing this. i sometimes find the machine struggles when i tamp at approx 30 pounds which seems the quoted figure.  i do tamp less in fact. i wish to experiment at the very least and take it up to 9. hoping i can get more crema,   no matter how, i grind, tamp,  new beans etc,    i cant get that 1 cm crema that so many people seem to get in the perfect cup.  my crema usually is about 2-4mm   well this is very nice... i am trying for the thick crema version. as i say also ..my machine beeps when pouring sometimes, (warning)  no ...im not tamping too hard ,  or grinding too fine...i think the machine just needs slightly more pump pressure... am i way of the mark or is it worth the try ?? if all else fails i will get a tech..      nothing wrong really just need the crema ...and to stop the occasional beeping which seems to happen when the water struggles through the puck...                 cheers ryan

sharkboy

Hi Ryan, If your pour is slow, or struggling it sounds like your grind is just a tad fine. A marginally too fine grind with a firm tamp usually results in stalled sort of pour. This ristretto style pour usually results in the thinner crema you are getting. I would hesitate to compensate for a slow pour by adjusting the brew pressure, unless it is way off where it should be. Since doing some home roasting I've noticed that only super fresh beans, ie within 5 days of roasting, give the massive crema you seem to be seeking. When I'm dialling in the grind for some new beans if the grind is just a bit coarse I get a fairly fast pour but lots of crema. If the beans you are using are any older than a week it might be a uphill battle to get big crema. The bottomless portafilter, from all reports, increases crema volume. It would seem though that the density of the crema is compromised and the larger bubbles dissipate more rapidly than a conventional pour. Enormous crema seems like a bit of a party trick that doesn't necessarily enhance the result in the cup. You've certainly got yourself a nice machine to play with   I hope you get the results you are after soon.

ryan

thanks sharkboy i appreciate the advice... im hesitant to adjust pump pressure also.   I shall try again adjusting grind. my pump pressure is about 7-8 during a pour though, and nearly everywhere i read says it should be 9.       and as FC has said somewhere here as well......     so thought it wouldnt hurt to try.. Just got to look on the net to find out what to do and which screw to tweak.  (after changing grind etc again) Im not saying more crema will be great just want to try it i cant get that 1cm crema yet thats all. the machine is great,  and very simple to operate, always make great espresso,   ..and it looks stunning. im being fussy. but i wish for close to perfect and 9 seems to be whats required of the pump. FC   gave some advice and I will try yours in the morning. I have messed a lot with the grind so will try again to ease off and go slightly courser again my beans are always 0-3 weeks old at most.. and yes every new bean I try is different.   no wonder so many cafes get it wrong. my local cafe employed a girl last week, gave her 10 minutes training on a 3 group machine and left her for the lunch time rush. she has the settings already dialed but no idea of what was happening with anything. this cafe is a so called master coffee shop,  seating 80 people and very busy     their sign up front said "we pride ourselves on our coffee".   they sell beans as well from small hoppers.................which never move much in volume .................i figure they are 2-4 months old in the hoppers at least... anyway  milk was too cold on my first cup from her  .. Not her fault at all, and i felt sorry for her.  people ordering half decafe,    skinny latte,   double espressos.. she was looking around in wonder,  and she told me later she gave everyone the same milk as she couldnt even find skinny milk. anyway                 sorry about the sidetrack will update this week. cheers ryan

FreshCoffee2

Ryan, as mentioned by Sharkboy, sounds like the grind is set too fine for the particular beans you are using. On the basis of that I'm afraid I cannot recommend any adjustments be made to the machine. It's on the cards that when you get the grind right, it will all fall into place even if the guage on the machine indicates slightly less pressure than "book specification". In any case, you cannot rely on ABSOLUTE specifications, basically 8 to 10 bars is a "normally" accepted range, I cant see 7 as being that much different. So at this point I would have to repeat, get the grind right, enjoy, and put the tools away! Regardz, FC.

ryan

hey thanks guys have adjusted grind a lot today,   got it pretty good. a lot more crema......still not the 1cm i have seen around but better.  Wishful thinking.... Thanks for the simple advice. I was looking on the net and it seems there are so many coffee experts out there who dont !!! work in the industry its mind boggling. Talking about PFD  your shot, (not sure what that even is)  adding 8 robuster beans to the mix, using certain water, roasting at lower temperatures,  getting digital thermometers,  opening up machines to wrap the boiler in insulwool for better shots. I actually think their are too many so called experts. anyway thats my opinion, thanks all here for advice.   straight to the point i will bypass the insulwool tip.   doesnt things like this lead to problems with insurance etc if there is an electrical fire ????  or electricution.  ?? Or am I too paranoid and old (40) I think too many people coffee websites seem to think its normal to open up and work on 240v   or 110v volt devices (espresso machines) Electricity....water            can spell death and fire ?? as i say............maybe i was bought up paranoid. anyone else have an opinion here sorry i got sidetracked from my original post.. cheers RYAN

sharkboy

It might be a good idea to start a new thread in relation to modifying your machine at home. I like the idea of insulating the boiler. A few machines come with boilers that are factory insulated eg NS Oscar. I'm assuming it would decrease the number of heating cycles the boiler would need. Leading to lower power consumption and less wear. Just an assumption... FC would have a better idea of the pros and cons of modifictions. Stephen

john

Ryan Apart from being a reseller of ECM machines I also have an A1 on my kitchen bench. It is not plumbed in. I have enjoyed using it for the past 10 months. Steam (boiler) pressure is 1.1 to 1.2 Water pump pressure is around 8.2 bar during extraction. STEAM PRESSURE: On this machine steam pressure from 1.0 to 1.25 bar is more than adequate. My preference is around 1.2 bar. As others mentioned, I would not push it up to 1.5. At 1.1 to 1.2 bar, I have never had any problems with either steam pressure or steam quantity. I would not push it over 1.3 bar. PUMP PRESSURE: At around 8.2 bar during extraction, the quality of my espresso is pretty good. I have had no desire to change the setting. This 'ultimate' setting will depend on a number of factors. Possibly the most important one being the blend (and roast level) of the coffee you are using. CREMA: The crema can be influenced by the following factors: freshness of the coffee, bean-roast level, grind, dose quantity, tamp pressure, water quantity, water temperature and/or pressure. Before adjusting the machine I would be more inclined to check out your coffee first, followed by your grind, dosing and tamping technique. Good luck John

ryan

Thanks pinot and others. im nearly there, without adjustments.  like a little more steam, but will leave it. crema not quite a thick as some top cafes yet but getting there. cheers ryan