Extraction time and preinfusion - have I been getting it wrong all this time?

Kelsey

When I get the grind/tamp/dose right, I hit the brew button on the BZ07 and there is always almost exactly 15 secs between pressing the button and the golden brown stuff starting to flow out of the spouts.

Until now, I've been counting to 27s from the moment I hit the button - and I've had a great number of fantastical shots this way. I like 'em ristretto, so it's not really a problem for me to cut a shot short.

But I've been playing with a few different blends from commercial roasters recently (no time to roast for myself) and one of the variables I've been working with beyond temp has been extraction time.

Taken from pressing the brew button, the Lamkin Lane blend has been doing very nicely for me at around 42ish seconds. From that in a VST triple I get a solid 2 x 30ml that is tiger mottled in my espresso cup and is a much smoother brew than if I leave it for the traditional 27s from pressing the brew button.

So it's gotten me thinking - have I had it wrong this whole time?

Does pressing the brew button give me approx 12-15 seconds of pre-infusion, followed by 25-30 seconds of the shot?

Or is it just this particular bean that benefits from a longer extraction?

derrilex

Bloody hell Kelsey ! 15 secs . I'm lucky to get 4 before it starts to come out. Any longer than 8 and I right it off as a choke. When I knock out a choker the basket is just a big oily mess which confirms my suspicions and I grind coarser. Do you get any oil on the bottom of the basket ? I can't see how you're getting 15 secs without it being a  near choke or having a oily basket. KK's strega is luck to get 4 or 5 but the preinfusion is done when the water is filling the chamber

lemoo

i'm the same with D once it goes around 8-10 secs with nothing coming out i write it off as choked and grind coarser

galumay

Well its not pre-infusion, normal pump machines dont do pre-infusion, thats a low pressure soaking of the puck that Levers are renowned for. It does sound like a choker, either that or there is some other issue with the parameters of the machine. But hey, if you get something you like in the cup, then its all good!

conikal

on 1368067444:

Well its not pre-infusion, normal pump machines dont do pre-infusion,

  Well some do,... E61 equipped pump m/c do ! ..but the BZ07 doesnt have an E61 group either

Kelsey

Definitely not a choker - I do like them ristretto! The typical routine would be to press the button, at about 15 seconds I get the first drips and by 30 I have about 15ml X 2. Anything more and it's a gusher!

derrilex

I know Brett can pre infuse with his E61 jigger. Agree with G too. Something doesn't sound right there Kelsey. Then again, agree with G too that it's what's in the cup that counts. I'd love to see a vid of the extraction and the puck knock out though Kelsey.

mycuppa

K - I'm with you - situation normal. depends upon the machine and the type/size flow restrictor fitted - and of course a few other variables like grind/dose and surprise, surprise the actual COFFEE !

UNM

Its all wrong Kelsey. The 27 sec rule is there for a reason. Unfortunately, as we were not able to correct this early enough, you  will have already metabolised  quite a few 'false ristretto' shots (falsettos).  You really ought to have your stomach pumped and a full blood  transfusion. In the meantime, 10 Lungo's should help limit the effects  somewhat As to mycuppas comment above, while I often agree with his statements, I fear in this case he may also have deviated from the standard and be suffering  from falsetto  induced delusion. I do hope not, as sometimes  the consequences are irreversible.  I shall be monitoring and take necessary action at the first sign of a goatee or thick rimmed glasses. Edit: having just read the above again, it does seem perhaps slightly snobbish.  Best ignore it and enjoy your coffee however you want. :thumb:

derrilex

Oh well, maybe it's worth a go then. Make it mega tight and see what happens. My poor OPV will be squarking it's head off  :D

Lacehim

It's what in the cup that counts every time.  I've pulled shots well past 27secs, and they tasted fantastic so I drink them.  Just because someone pulls 27 seconds out their head based on some statistics doesn't mean that it's the best shot time for every bean/machine on the planet. If your routine works for you, it's all good, but as a bit of an experiment grind a bit coarser which should reduce that perfusion time down and see if you still like the result, if not just keep going along happily enjoying the coffee your way. PS.  I've never complained about your coffee mate, it's always lovely when I've popped in.

Kelsey

I suspect I've just been confused by a couple of the roasts I've tried recently - the D&D Driftwood and the Lamkin Lane blend, which a strikingly similar in some respects. They both seem to benefit from slightly longer extraction times. But James and Tim also seem to favour a longer resting period - 18 to 20 days seems to be their sweet spot.

askthecoffeeguy

If it aint broke dont cruicifix it !

derrilex

My interpretation of the Kelsey choke. It was the best tasting shot I've had in 3 days. [embed=425,349]

Brett H

Best thread of the year!  Sounds like your machine is a different setup K.  I'm losing my falsetto due to my ageing and ossifying cricoid and thyroid, but 'if I could turn back time' I would have enjoyed a few more falsies!

Kelsey

Told ya, D - ristretto is the only way.  :thumb: Brett - if falsettos are wrong, I don't want to be right.

GaryatGala

I love double ristrettos at the expense of some bean character from the espresso stage of the pour. One man's elixir is another man's poison. Some like body and buttery mouth feel at the expense of character. Some prefer character at the expense of some body.

Brett H

on 1368151708:

I love double ristrettos at the expense of some bean character from the espresso stage of the pour. One man's elixir is another man's poison. Some like body and buttery mouth feel at the expense of character. Some prefer character at the expense of some body.

Gary, are you still talking bout coffee? :rofl: I've been pouring longer... More like full doubles lately and loving the results.  When your skill set is honed, your tastes can afford to change with the seasons!  In fact for the joy of a well rounded experience, I'd encourage it!

C-man

on 1368098116:

My interpretation of the Kelsey choke. It was the best tasting shot I've had in 3 days. [embed=425,349]

looks like it started out OK, then turned into a blonde gusher When I get it right it starts slow and runs a thin hair like mouse tail the whole time and stays dark just sayn---

derrilex

Nothing gusher about that one. It's just the light and reflection that plays with the camera

Koffee_Kosmo

Time starts from when you press the button

conikal

on 1375054072:

Time starts from when you press the button

  which "button" is that on the Strega..KK.. ??

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1375055646:

  which "button" is that on the Strega..KK.. ??

Believe it or not it does have a microswitch type button at the base of the lever to activate the HX pump KK

derrilex

Was thinking about that too KK. Mitica has the same switch 

C-man

on 1375053394:

Nothing gusher about that one. It's just the light and reflection that plays with the camera

gusher was the wrong word, at the end your stream was about 10mm think I must be pouring chokes then as my stream never gets any thicker than 2-3mm when I have thick streams they don't taste as good to me.

derrilex

I have noticed when using a normal PF if the stream isn't thick and gooey it's a rubbish shot. I'll sometimes get a thin watery stream if I grind too tight and in that case based on previous experiences I'll sink it and start again. Thick and gooey is good in my experience  :D

Lacehim

Thin and watery shots usually points towards channelling from my experience, especially if you grind too tight, the water just finds the easiest way through.

Lizzi

Quick starters are sink shot in this house.... When I use the Syn triple basket and  things go the way they should it will often take about 10-12 seconds before the extraction starts. I often cut it around 45 sec, and end up  with about 30-35ml of what I call  Ristretto. Smooth, sweet, no bitterness, just bliss in a  cup. Lately I have been using a Syn single basket, first time  I have tried my hand at it. It will take about 6-8 seconds before the flow starts, and  I cut it at about 35 sec, giving me around 15-20 ml.. just enough for a piccolo L

C-man

sorry, I should have said thin tail but very thick syrupy gooey pour with out the ballooning at the top. I should film one.

C-man

more like a choke, then driper turning into a steady stream, still sticky but the stream stays skinny and dark the whole thing takes about 45 seconds

askthecoffeeguy

here's a link to an extraction I did the other day where I purposely fined the grind and updosed the shot to compensate for 3 week old beans - and the extraction ran for about a minute in total with approx 20 sec before it started pouring Its not how I'd normally run my shots but the resulting coffee was delicious - but was probably better enjoyed as a double espresso (which is how I had it) than as a milk based coffee - as it lacked a little definition and punch - which was compensated for by some lovely round sugars on the mid palate...; but I digress... [embed=425,349]