Crema question

System

I own a Saeco Via Venezia and have converted to a non-pressurized handle. I know that a normal shot should be 25-30 seconds to produced a good espresso. The thing with my setup is it seems to pour too quickly 14-17 secs. but I still get a good crema that last at least 1-2 minutes. I thought you needed to extract slowly to get a good crema or would my crema be alot better if I did. How fine should the grind be ? My grinder seems to grind fairly fine.

mattyj

one of the biggest problems with home coffee setup ... one of the biggest areas where we fall down in coffee prep is dosage ... that is, how much coffee you put in the filter basket. If you think you're grinding fine enough for espresso, try adding even more coffee to the basket. If you get the shot within your parameters (30mls 30seconds whatever...), then drink and enjoy. If it's still too fast, grind finer and try again.

Unknown

If I put more coffee in the handle and tamper it, the coffee sits too high and touches the shower screen which makes it hard to lock in. What is the main reason between a home setup and a commercial? Apart from the size of the group handle.

mattyj

So what I hear you saying is that there's absolutely no way you can add more coffee to the filter basket? If so, then grind finer. But firstly, try putting in about half the coffee, tamping, then adding the rest of the coffee and taming again. You may find that you can get more compaction in the cake of coffee, and therefore it tamps to a lower level in the basket, allowing you to still lock in the portafilter with ease. The main difference/s between a commercial setup and a home setup? Size? Power usage (more water to heat up in commercial)? I'm sure there's heaps of differences. But the main difference is that (speculation here) commercial machines are made for a higher output than domestic machines, so they have quicker temp' recovery times after pulling a shot and steaming milk. I have a small commercial grinder at home (which I love), and what seems to be called a 'prosumer' machine ... somewhere inbetween a domestic machine and a commercial heat exchanger machine - small boiler, heat exchange, e61 group, fast recovery time. If it's not managed well (flushing before pulling shots etc) it will burn coffee like there's no tomorrow. But once I've pulled a cooling flush ... it's sweet as! Most machines in this class (giotto, expobar pulser machines, diadema, unico spledour etc etc) are all really similar, and perform similarly. Probably a bit overkill unless you're a bit obsessed like myself.

Unknown

Thanks Matt, I will try tamping twice and see how I go. About setting the grinder finer, it is already set to the finest. I have the Solis Maesto grinder which I have modified to grind finer then the factory setting. Maybe it can go a little finer again !

Unknown

Re-adjusted the grinder to go a little more finer. Compacting twice seems to improve the extraction. The hardest thing is to work out how much coffee to fill the basket with, slightly over or slight under seems to make a big difference. I need to work out how much coffee is needed so that the coffee, after tampering, just sits under the shower screen, that way when the coffee expands, it restricts the flow to meet the 20-30 sec. I once put so much coffee that the machine almost stalled!

Mark

I own a Saeco Via Venezia and have converted to a non-pressurized handle.

Agreed dosage/grind/tamping/ is critical but could this be your crema problem?  I've never used a presurised handle but aren't the pressurised handles really there to create backpressure in the pf to compensate for lack of brew pressure? What I am saying is, is the machine extracting at 8.5 - 9 Bar pressure?  Or is it slightly less and the pressurised handle was "making up the diference"?

Unknown

The pressurised group handle is designed to create a crema no matter what grind and freeshness the coffee is. It is really made so the user does not have to worry about the coffee used and how it is prepared but more that they get an avarage coffee with foam that resembles crema. The Via Venezia actually has great pressure and make a descent coffee with a non-pressurised handle.

mattyj

yeah, crema-enhancers/pressurised portafilters create back pressure, not to deal with a lack of brew pressure (look at the advertising: 15-17 bar pumps), but to deal with bad coffee and bad preparation skills. (How many people do you know who tamp with the back of a spoon, if at all?) If I recall correctly, vibe pumps won't run at a set brew pressure, but will work up to the pressure needed to brew. So if you get things (grind, dose, distribute and tamp) right, it will brew at about 9 bar. If you pack in too much coffee too tightly, it will stall the pump, or brew at the maximum pressure ... 15-17 bars. But if you use stale old coffee, ground for plunger, not tamped etc, yeah, it probably will brew at a lower pressure. The funny thing is when you try getting crema out of a commercial machine using stale supermarket coffee. The coffee from a pressurised pf looks much better, but they both taste like garbage!

theo72

HI, Is non pressurise handle better? does it pour slower same as commercial handle with my machine it does great crema very similar with automatic. Is it worth buying non pressurise handle?

Unknown

Theo, do you own a Via Venezia? I've had my machine for about 1 1/2years now and its been great. Buying a non preassurised handle and a metal tamper was the best thing I did. I now produced Cafe quality coffees with my machine, with the right technique of cause. The speed of the extraction is controlled by the grind,tampering and amount of coffee just like a commercial machine and I tell you, the crema and coffee flavour is so much more enhanced. The crema comes out the way it should be, smooth rich golden brown. Don't forget to use fresh coffee, it make alot of difference.

zazoo

Small Comment - When I bought my Gaggia Classic a few years ago, it came with a plastic tamper.  I never thought about the quality of the tamper and the effect on crema until I saw I nice metal convex one on sale somewhere and bought it.  It made the world of difference.  Have also tried double-tamping, works a treat in the right circumstances - type of coffee etc.  I've also notice a baristas give a little twist when tamping.  I don't know the technicalities of this are but from an observational standpoint it appears to put a 'finish' or 'sheen' on the top of the cake, I tried it at home and it really does make a difference! I have no idea whether the handle of the Gaggia Classic is presurised or not - I would assume not - but over-filling the basket just creates one hell of a mess.

FreshCoffee2

It's not so much the material that the tamper is made of but the size of the tamping face that makes the difference. Manufacturers invariably supply tampers with a much smaller diameter face than the diameter of the filter. Using a tamper with correct sized face for the filter concerned results in much better extraction. Tamping evenly (ie not lower on one side than the other) over the surface of the grinds also improves the extraction. The twist at the end "seals" the surface of the grinds. Without the twist it is easier for the water flow to find the "path of least resistance" through the grinds thereby resulting in a lesser extraction. Not twisting basically  results in a less effective tamp. The standard handle supplied with the classic is not pressurised. Regardz, FC.

FreshCoffee2

Other chappies. The pressurised filter handle results in a mellow / mild coffee which is not like either commercial style, or stovepot style espresso. But you have to remember the thing is designed to allow householders with no knowledge of the intricacies of pump driven espresso machine op-eration, to brew an "acceptable" home made espresso. It's simple lowest common denomonator stuff, and it does work. I could be wrong, and I cant remember the finer details of the inside of of a VV but it is probable that it would have an over pressure valve fitted somewhere in the system and I am guess it would probably relieve pressure at around 12 bars. So whilst the finness of the grounds usually governs the brew pressure in a machine, there is usually a maximum that the manufacturer wont allow the pressure to go beyond on most machines. The problem with using any non pressurised filterhandle on a machine with no group solenoid, particularly if you overfill and or overtamp the grinds, is the loverly explosion  of pressure & hot grinds that you get all over your hand & wrist when you rwemove the handle from the group. These types of machines dont like overfilling / overtamping and/or coffee ground too finely (as in, as fine as "regular commercial" grind). Regardz, FC.

Unknown

I haven't had the problem with exploding coffee with my VV yet, maybe I'm not getting up to the pressure that I should be. I'm still getting a very nice coffee though at the right extraction time. Tampering evenly makes a big difference. You can tell by the way the coffee pours out from the handle and whether it pours evenly out of both holes. The metal tamper seems easier to use with less effort as the tamper weighs that extra bit more that a plastic one.

Honest_Gaza

Other chappies. The problem with using any non pressurised filterhandle on a machine with no group solenoid, particularly if you overfill and or overtamp the grinds, is the loverly explosion

zazoo

wow - it's the little things that make the difference.... gives me a few more techniques to fiddle with at home!

theo72

Hi, I do own VV Saeco, thanks for your reply do you get your extraction in 20sec-25sec now or its shorter? I cant wait to get my new grinder and the non pp filter to test it.

Unknown

Yes, the extraction is around 20-25sec. Sometimes it can be quicker, but the crema is still ok. The grind and tampering is very important.